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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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 Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:31 pm Post subject: Timing Issues |
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So I have this 79 FI Super that I picked up last week. Took all week to get the fuel injection system cleaned and to get the bug to run. Car is stock, but it had the 009 distributor on it. Timed about 7 degrees BTDC. But it still lacked throttle response. I have two other distributors with vacuum. Tried both of them and they are not better. If I advance the timing near 20 degrees or so, runs much better and throttle response better.
Suggestions?
Bob |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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| txasylum wrote: |
| So I have this 79 FI Super that I picked up last week. Took all week to get the fuel injection system cleaned and to get the bug to run. Car is stock, but it had the 009 distributor on it. Timed about 7 degrees BTDC. But it still lacked throttle response... If I advance the timing near 20 degrees or so, runs much better and throttle response better. |
Your FI engine is probably expecting the timing advance of a stock SVDA or DVDA. Your OO9 does not have the same timing curve. Setting the idle timing to 20BTDC indicates your engine wants more timing just off idle. The danger of cranking the timing up this far with a OO9 is you will over advance the ignition timing at higher engine rpms and cause detonation.
| txasylum wrote: |
| I have two other distributors with vacuum. Tried both of them and they are not better. |
Not all vacuum advance distributors are the same. Some were vacuum-only distributors (SVA); others had both mechanical advance and vacuum advance. Post the model#s for your different distributors. Look them up here to see if they have vacuum advance/retard and/or mechanical advance.
http://www.type2.com/~keen/ignition.html
The best solution is to find an original distributor that goes with your stock FI engine. For a '75-'79 FI that would be a VW 043-905-205H, Bosch 0231 176 044 (manual transmission model). This was a DVDA distributor. They are not all the same so you should try to find this specific model.
The next best option would be a SVDA distributor... a rebuilt one or a good quality new one (Pertronix SVDA?). These advance the ignition timing just as you accelerate off idle and give you the power you are looking for.
Idle timing for these should be around 7.5BTDC.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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I am working with the following distributors:
- 009
- 113-905-205AN
- 113-905-205 (old used one)
- 113-905-205 (brand new from CIP1)
All have the same results and timing. At TDC or 5-7 degrees BTDC it severely lacks throttle response.
| ashman40 wrote: |
| txasylum wrote: |
| So I have this 79 FI Super that I picked up last week. Took all week to get the fuel injection system cleaned and to get the bug to run. Car is stock, but it had the 009 distributor on it. Timed about 5 degrees ATDC. But it still lacked throttle response... If I advance the timing near 20 degrees or so, runs much better and throttle response better. |
Your FI engine is probably expecting the timing advance of a stock SVDA or DVDA. Your OO9 does not have the same timing curve. Setting the idle timing to 20BTDC indicates your engine wants more timing just off idle. The danger of cranking the timing up this far with a OO9 is you will over advance the ignition timing at higher engine rpms and cause detonation.
| txasylum wrote: |
| I have two other distributors with vacuum. Tried both of them and they are not better. |
Not all vacuum advance distributors are the same. Some were vacuum-only distributors (SVA); others had both mechanical advance and vacuum advance. Post the model#s for your different distributors. Look them up here to see if they have vacuum advance/retard and/or mechanical advance.
http://www.type2.com/~keen/ignition.html
The best solution is to find an original distributor that goes with your stock FI engine. For a '75-'79 FI that would be a VW 043-905-205H, Bosch 0231 176 044 (manual transmission model). This was a DVDA distributor. They are not all the same so you should try to find this specific model.
The next best option would be a SVDA distributor... a rebuilt one or a good quality new one (Pertronix SVDA?). These advance the ignition timing just as you accelerate off idle and give you the power you are looking for.
Idle timing for these should be around 7.5BTDC. |
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minah
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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Check for vacuum leaks, FI engines can't tolerate unmetered air.
Google the Bosch FI troubleshooting guide. Use that to make sure all your FI sensors are operating as intended. Once you have this running you're gonna love the FI! I had a 78 and it took some time to get it running right but when I did it ran great, started great, and needed virtually no warm up to just take off.
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'91 Westy - 'Galaxy'
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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Car sat for 10 years. Took me all week to get fuel system cleaned up and finally got it running yesterday. I don't see any vacuum leaks. This throttle response is driving me nuts now. LOL
| minah wrote: |
Check for vacuum leaks, FI engines can't tolerate unmetered air.
Google the Bosch FI troubleshooting guide. Use that to make sure all your FI sensors are operating as intended. Once you have this running you're gonna love the FI! I had a 78 and it took some time to get it running right but when I did it ran great, started great, and needed virtually no warm up to just take off. |
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4026
Location: WA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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| If it sat for 10 years, did you clean out the tank and supply and return lines as it sounds like your motor is starving for fuel. |
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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yes, new tank. Blew out all the lines except for fuel injectors and the metal line that connects to them.
| Starbucket wrote: |
| If it sat for 10 years, did you clean out the tank and supply and return lines as it sounds like your motor is starving for fuel. |
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MuzzcoVW
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 1475
Location: Westfield, MA.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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| 1- First thing to be safe set your timing at MAX ADVAVCE 3000 RPM or so, not at idle! Its a great way to protect your engine especially if the distributor isn't original. I've found on all my cars that if set at idle most times there's too much advance at highway rpm, great way to burn up an engine. 2- When sitting for that long, you MUST have the injectors cleaned!! (or replace...only $26 at rock auto) Its amazing how bad they'll get just sitting for a year or two. It would be a great time to change those and ALL the rubber fuel lines. Think they look good...not if they're 30 plus years old. Also X2 a 009 has no place on that setup. Really any street driven stock bug needs vacuum advance. The original dual vac units are hard to find now but the generic single vac unit works great,, I have one on my car now and it feels like a whole other cylinder when the vac advance works. |
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MuzzcoVW
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 1475
Location: Westfield, MA.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:21 am Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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| Also let me say again, did you change every piece of fuel line? And another random thought..when the injectors come out you can replace the two O rings on each injector. They can be an annoying source of vacuum leaks as well as the plastic spacer/gasket combo between the intake and heads. This is why its SO important to replace all rubber seals/hoses/gaskets on these if they've been sitting a long time. Its well worth the effort!! Let us know how it goes. P.S. they won't run right with the air filter housing removed unless you plug up the hose to the S boot, it creates a huge vacuum leak |
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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Thanks for the advice. $26 for injectors? I think I have one bad one. They were last changed in 2002, but still the car has sat. I need to order the seals. I know I have one leaking. All fuel lines look good. The one that did not was on the tank, so I replaced that return line to the tank.
I'm heading to Rock Auto now.
| unitedracing wrote: |
| 1- First thing to be safe set your timing at MAX ADVAVCE 3000 RPM or so, not at idle! Its a great way to protect your engine especially if the distributor isn't original. I've found on all my cars that if set at idle most times there's too much advance at highway rpm, great way to burn up an engine. 2- When sitting for that long, you MUST have the injectors cleaned!! (or replace...only $26 at rock auto) Its amazing how bad they'll get just sitting for a year or two. It would be a great time to change those and ALL the rubber fuel lines. Think they look good...not if they're 30 plus years old. Also X2 a 009 has no place on that setup. Really any street driven stock bug needs vacuum advance. The original dual vac units are hard to find now but the generic single vac unit works great,, I have one on my car now and it feels like a whole other cylinder when the vac advance works. |
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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I saw the smaller O ring that the injector smashes up to the head and the bigger rubber O ring that rests against the metal piece that holds them in place. What is the plastic spacer? Is that part of that O ring that goes to the head? Anyway, going looking now.
| unitedracing wrote: |
| Also let me say again, did you change every piece of fuel line? And another random thought..when the injectors come out you can replace the two O rings on each injector. They can be an annoying source of vacuum leaks as well as the plastic spacer/gasket combo between the intake and heads. This is why its SO important to replace all rubber seals/hoses/gaskets on these if they've been sitting a long time. Its well worth the effort!! Let us know how it goes. P.S. they won't run right with the air filter housing removed unless you plug up the hose to the S boot, it creates a huge vacuum leak |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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| txasylum wrote: |
| ........... All fuel lines look good. The one that did not was on the tank, so I replaced that return line to the tank.............. |
That's a scary statement, are you really ready to risk a fire over $20-$30 worth of hose and some clamps? Every single piece of rubber hose that's exposed to fuel under pressure has to be new, and no less than SAE J-30R9 grade too. It's no joke how fast a fire can start and get out of control on these, all it takes is one little tiny leak, that pump puts out a lot of gas in a minute and it'll be too big to fight by the time you notice. Fuel line can rot from the inside and "look' just fine on the outside, old gas accelerates the process.
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MuzzcoVW
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 1475
Location: Westfield, MA.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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| 1st comment if your buying injectors from rock auto be sure you buy 4 of them. They use the newer improved pintal design and if you only change one there could be a mismatch. 2nd I can't stress enough how much I agree with busdaddy's statement above!!! If the fuel lines are 10 years old they may look good but they are bad. Some of mine looked good and had been sitting over 20 years on used however once you start messing with them it tells the true story |
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MuzzcoVW
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 1475
Location: Westfield, MA.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Timing Issues |
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| Just realized I missed the spacer question. The spacer is a spacer/gasket combo that goes between the head and the intake manifold just under where the injectors mount. Its a popular place for vacuum leaks. Be careful when replacing, the torque spec is less than you'd expect. And did I tell you I agree with busdaddy lol..Seriously replace all underhood fuel lines! If you buy new injectors they should come with a new piece of hose attached. |
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