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d_walküre Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2008 Posts: 72 Location: Tulsa, OK
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:02 pm Post subject: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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I actually have a question that I have not been able to find the answer to after scouring this forum and others. There seem to be tons on info on silicone fluids and the amounts of fluid and testing. However, because I though I was being diligent about lining up my plates in the order that I was taking them out, only to find out that I was not (slippery little buggers), I could not find any good info on plate orientation when putting them back in.
The outer plates have 50 splines with 18 holes, and the inners have 17 inner splines and 20 slits or fins.
EDIT: fixed the picture
It seems like with these numbers there could be an infinite number of ways to orient the plates to their splines. Someone on a video or forum mentioned that the circular mark on the inner plates mean that those are the ones that face "up". To me that does not make much sense since you can tell which face is which by the stamping: smooth vs. edge. Also, why then would the outer plates not have a similar mark?... yes, I checked each one
So, to me it would seem the inner plates should all be lined up with the circular mark on a spline. But then where does that leave the outer plates? There is a punch mark on the outside of the case which I read is where you line up the cover for balancing purposes. Okay, but could that also be an orienting mark for the outer plates?
This is an extra VC that I got from a Samba member, so it is not like I'm without one for a little while. But, I do plan on taking the working one out of my Syncro now so that I can take it apart and **hopefully** be more careful with removing the plates. I'll probably make a diagram with what I come up with.
But, if anyone has any info on this or a diagram for how the plates were oriented from the factory, I would be much appreciative!!!
This extra VC seems to have lost most of its magical fluid because of the common seal twist:
And I probably won't be using this one anyhow because it has seen some major stress:
_________________ JesusV
1987 Vanagon GL Syncro SVX NAHT "Valkyrie"
1993 Eurovan Weekender "Camper van Beethoven"
1959 Bug
Last edited by d_walküre on Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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It’s been too long since I did mine. I bookmarked this thread. [url] https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=575020[/url]
I also found a lot of help on a website in the UK. I’d have to go through my old notes. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a you tube video now. [/url] _________________ ☮️ |
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d_walküre Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2008 Posts: 72 Location: Tulsa, OK
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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I have re-read that post a number of times and it's been one of the docs that has given me the confidence to take this on. However, I couldn't glean and details on plate configuration from it.
Of all the youtube vids, I have watched the 5 part German one a number of times, some in slow-mo. I figure most people just put them back in as they found them... unfortunately I kinda screwed myself there. _________________ JesusV
1987 Vanagon GL Syncro SVX NAHT "Valkyrie"
1993 Eurovan Weekender "Camper van Beethoven"
1959 Bug |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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https://vw-kern.at/visco-kupplung
This site has some good back story on viscous couplings and the flaws of the VW versions. Interesting info. I ran across the link on r3vlimited in a thread on testing/rebuilding a VC, which also has some interesting data. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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I’ll look for the forum in the UK that was helpful. I’ll also try to rethink what I did. The outer plates are fixed, I likely aligned the holes plate to plate. For the inner plates I may have stacked the “O”s aligned. The VC works well. It’s just too foggy.
It’s not as bad, but at the time many of the syncro experts on the Samba weren’t that forth coming. That seems to have improved.
Fill amount is important too. A member on the UK site helped me to calculate the correct amount. That’s also foggy at the moment. _________________ ☮️ |
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d_walküre Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2008 Posts: 72 Location: Tulsa, OK
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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Thanks for the help! At this point, I think more important than weight of the fluid is volume. The technical paper on VCs says 5-10% air pocket and then later says 8-10. That was for 100,000 cst fluid. A little less for 30,000 cst is what I'm thinking... Somewhere between 5-8%????
As far as arrangement, I tried lining everything up - inners to inners, outers to outers and it just didn't look right. It looked like it would be too easy for the fluid to go between plates. So, I tried offsetting the pairs by one notch and doing that all the way around and it looked much better, and a bit closer to what it was when I took it apart.
I think I'm just gonna take this "good" VC out of my Syncro and try again. We are in a deep freeze in Oklahoma now with several inches of snow in the forecast this weekend. Perfect time to test if I can get it buttoned up in time. _________________ JesusV
1987 Vanagon GL Syncro SVX NAHT "Valkyrie"
1993 Eurovan Weekender "Camper van Beethoven"
1959 Bug |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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So basically the opposite logic I came up with. It's likely not critical or the internet would be full of this is the only right way to do it. _________________ ☮️ |
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d_walküre Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2008 Posts: 72 Location: Tulsa, OK
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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True. The technical paper does not put any emphasis on plate arrangement just saying that they are perforated to let fluid move from plate to plate and because solid plates caused overheating and cupping during some tests. So, you are probably right in that it does not matter too much.
However, I cannot wrap my brain around the idea of German/Austrian engineers doing anything haphazardly and then the mystery of the circular punch marks... _________________ JesusV
1987 Vanagon GL Syncro SVX NAHT "Valkyrie"
1993 Eurovan Weekender "Camper van Beethoven"
1959 Bug |
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d_walküre Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2008 Posts: 72 Location: Tulsa, OK
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Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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MarkWard wrote: |
So basically the opposite logic I came up with. It's likely not critical or the internet would be full of this is the only right way to do it. |
Round 2: I took the vc out of my van and it is a completely different story than the first one. My suspicions of a stiff or locked vc were somewhat confirmed when I opened this one up. Here is the goo that came out of it:
I was a lot more diligent about recording the order that I was taking the plates out and if you can't read this chicken scratch, the gist is that they were pretty randomly installed in there. Also, about half the plates were facing the wrong direction: some were edge-up and some edge-down.
Luckily my seals were in good shape and I just put everything back together as I found it, adding more fluid after every 5 or so pairs of plates. Doing it this way, I was able to put on the circlip and cover without much problem.
I put it back in the van today and after first few drives it steers much more easily, and everything seems to be working fine. Very happy with the results! I'm going to do more testing tomorrow and Monday after we get some more ice and snow headed our way. _________________ JesusV
1987 Vanagon GL Syncro SVX NAHT "Valkyrie"
1993 Eurovan Weekender "Camper van Beethoven"
1959 Bug |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9618 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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Have you tested your VC with the standard “Syncro 2x4” test? _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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d_walküre Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2008 Posts: 72 Location: Tulsa, OK
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Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:59 pm Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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Not since the rebuild... Just finished it up today right before work. Planning to test on my weekend. _________________ JesusV
1987 Vanagon GL Syncro SVX NAHT "Valkyrie"
1993 Eurovan Weekender "Camper van Beethoven"
1959 Bug |
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d_walküre Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2008 Posts: 72 Location: Tulsa, OK
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Yep, another VC rebuild thread! |
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Sodo wrote: |
Have you tested your VC with the standard “Syncro 2x4” test? |
Finally got around to running a battery of tests on this VC rebuild.
2x4 test:
Link
Hand turning test:
Link
Not really tests, but some vids of take off:
Link
Link
I was very happy with the 2x4 tests, although looking at similar tests on youtube it seems using a 4x4 rather than 2x4 might be more effective. I got pretty good rear wheel spin before the front wheels climbed over the 2x4 so it looks to be working like I want.
I was actually able to turn the wheel a good amount by hand as opposed to before where I turned the wheel a small amount and then it would return to position after I released the wheel.
Here's a short time-lapse of me cruising Tulsa with the new setup. Yes I do need a new windshield
Link
[/youtube] _________________ JesusV
1987 Vanagon GL Syncro SVX NAHT "Valkyrie"
1993 Eurovan Weekender "Camper van Beethoven"
1959 Bug |
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