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1959 36hp teardown & questions
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FarmerBill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:51 pm    Post subject: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

So it looks like it's going to be a couple of months until I can my bus down the hill and into the shop, so I thought I would start dismantling this 1959 36hp I picked up for another project. The plan is to rebuild it with a bit more power. I haven't decided exactly what I'll be doing yet. At least a stroker crank, but just an teardown for now.

A couple of questions for the experts. 1. Was a 4 into 1 exhaust a common aftermarket system for a 36hp? 2. Anyone recognize the smaller crank pulley?
I know from the serial number the engine wasn't an industrial model. The guy I got it from said it had been used on a farm to run a pump, I was wondering if it might have been a junkyard replacement for a Spra-Coupe. That would also explain the 40hp shroud. Anyway here's some pics, more to come.

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Oh yeah one more thing, weird hole torched through the tin over #3.

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Iowa Mark
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

Those non slip joint headers were available from JC Whitney back in the day. It took a few cuss words to bend things enough to get the bolts to line up. The pully could be whatever the farmer found to drill out and bolt to the crank. Farmers are kind of funny that way. Seeing the care in torching the hole by number three leads me to believe it was for something very important. Maybe a chunk of wire to hold the hose leading to the pump and away from the exhaust? Best of luck with your motor.
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FarmerBill
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

I only had an hour for the engine today, pulled the shroud and flywheel, shot some PB Blaster into the cylinders since they're stuck.

No gland nut or clutch so the flywheel popped right off. Pins look tight.
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Generator looks like it was run with a loose pulley nut, the tabs are notched about a third of the way through.
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All 8 shims still there.
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Kamex bolt was still on the generator strap.
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Thermostat is still there and hooked up. Thermostat ring is missing though.
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Mud wasp nest and snake skin under the shroud, lots of dirt too. Backs up the farm pump story.
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I was looking online last night and it seems like the only options for a bigger crank is the 69.5mm from WW or a Porsche crank. Options for bigger pistons seem to be 80mm cast from AA and 81mm forged from WW. If anyone has suggestions for a combo let me know. Or should I stay stock and look for a blower?

Also, anyone know what these stamps mean under the sn?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

FarmerBill wrote:
Also, anyone know what these stamps mean under the sn?
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When it has come up before: Nothing, just inspection/assembly stamps
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

Iíve never seen a stale air rectangular shroud, must be an industrial shroud?
You can look for a used Porsche A or B normal/super crank and have the rod journals machined for shortened 36hp rods and use the 80mm pistons and cylinders. You could couple that with the Wolfsburgwest Okrasa kit and have a hell of an expensive yet powerful 36hp based engine.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

Dpr can stroke your stock crank to 74mm, 8 dowel, and counterweight. They can lighten and 8 dowel the flywheel as well. 40hp 83mm big bore cylinders and pistons can be made to work but takes a little bit of work. This would make a 1602cc. Iím building one right now and can be seen here: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=180
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

69.5 x 80mm is the easiest way to go. WW sends .120 spacers with thier pushrods and you can use stock/ std bearings and conrods. you will need to make or find cylinder spacers .120" or so. DIY P&P the stock heads install a 33mm okrasa intake valve, maybe AA 1.15:1 ratio rockers. 40hp intake is a tad bigger ID or make your own. Toss on a AMR300 blower to wake it up.

74mm 356 Porsche non CW crank requires you to clearance the case and is a lot more work to get it all to fit together. Longer rods (Porsche rods) with matching pistons and pin diameter or you have to turn the rod journals down 55- to 50mm and narrow the 36hp rods to get them to fit on there. Connecting rods will hit the cam lobes meaning a ton grinding necessary as well.

cylinder stud pattern on 40hp 83mm jugs is way different than 36hp. Porsche 82.5mm barrel stud spacing is alot closer to 36hp but then your paying for Porsche parts and still have to alter/ modify.

Fan shroud is a stale air late 62/ early 63 only used 6 months before they went to fresh air in January 63.

If you dont want that header, you can send it this way.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

Iowa Mark wrote:
Those non slip joint headers were available from JC Whitney back in the day.

Pulled the exhaust today (sorry, no pictures) definitely looked like the quality I would expect from JC Whitney. Thin pipe, 1/8 inch flanges, cheap steel. It looks like the j-tubes might be VW though, there's a couple of spots of weld where the heater box used to be I assume. The flanges on the j-tubes are also 1/4 inch.
Braukuche wrote:
Iíve never seen a stale air rectangular shroud, must be an industrial shroud?

Yeah I have a feeling it came off an industrial engine. The first generation of Spra Coupes would have had the 40hp stale air shroud until 1965 at least. If a farmer bought a long block junkyard engine he would probably put his old shroud/generator assembly on it.
scotty timmerman wrote:
Dpr can stroke your stock crank to 74mm, 8 dowel, and counterweight. They can lighten and 8 dowel the flywheel as well.

I assume they build up the journals with weld and regrind? Anyway sounds interesting, I'll look into it. Does anyone make 36hp B pistons? Very Happy
FritzCP wrote:
69.5 x 80mm is the easiest way to go.

Yeah this is probably what I'll end up doing. Unless I talk my dumb-ass into a 74mm crank. I usually end up making more work for myself anyway. Either way I'm trying to avoid Porsche parts at all costs. I forgot how expensive that stuff is. Shocked
FritzCP wrote:

If you don't want that header, you can send it this way.

That header is rotted down to tin foil (probably none too thick to begin with) not good for much more than a template. I might bring it to a buddy of mine that has a tube bender and fab up a copy.

Also looked through my parts stash today and found a VJU 4 BR8 distributor and an early-ish (I think) 28pci carb. The carb doesn't have the model designation cast into the body but also doesn't have the thicker VW logo. From what I found on The Samba i think that puts it around 1954? I'll post more pics tomorow.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

Pulled the intake manifold and crank pulley today. Standard 36hp parts. The accessory pulley was a bit of a surprise, it looks like it was made for a VW crank.

Heavy two piece construction with extra pieces added to strengthen the bore. It has a warp washer.
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About 5 inches across.
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But the bolt is what's strange, about an inch long, with about a 5/16 shoulder that fits the bore in the mystery pulley perfectly. Too long to be a stock VW.
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Closer to 1 1/8 than 30mm. Only .008 over, I'll bet when I clean the rust off it's right on. That would make it about 28.5mm.
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I'm finding all the farmer hacks all over this motor (a too long 7/16 bolt with a stack of washers holding the intake manifold to the head, the hole torched in the tin, etc.) This seems like legit aftermarket. The bolt is the right size for its job in every way, the threads are exactly right, but its head is SAE? I tried an original VW crank pulley bolt and it threaded right in. Maybe Spra Coupe made their own pulley and hardware, maybe it's from some other American accessory who knows.

Anyway, I looked up the AMR300 last night and that seems to be the ticket. About $1300 less than a repro Okrasa kit too. So it's looking like 69.5 crank 81mm barrels, some head work and a better exhaust. I might just keep this under $3000 in parts. Just wondering what peoples experience is with these blowers. Do they work well with the 28pci? How fast do they need to spin to get the correct psi? What is the correct psi? Looks like I've got some searching and reading to do. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

Braukuche wrote:
Iíve never seen a stale air rectangular shroud, must be an industrial shroud?


I've had a 40hp stale air shroud that looked like that. Probably still have it though I broke the engine down for parts.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

Meyers Manx used those shrouds.
(But not on 36hp blocks)




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

So I went looking through the classifieds last night, and it looks like that pulley is an A/C pulley for a 68-79 Ghia/Bug.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2389184
The bolt is still a mystery. It doesn't match any of the A/C bolts posted for sale. Also why would it be SAE. I suppose it could be 29mm, still weird.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2346208
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

Maybe they were using the smaller pulley to pull start the motor with a rope, I have seen it done.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

If that was some farmer engine, the bolt could have been modified to fit whatever tools he had around, or whatever socket he owned that fit inside the pulley. People made stuff work back in the day, with whatever they had
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

That's the thing, if this was modified I don't think it was in a farm shop. It's too perfect. I was raised on a farm and have worked on farms my whole life. I've seen and made my share of hacks. If I had a big metric bolt and no metric socket I would probably use a cold chisel and a hammer (that's what they did on the generator fan nut) or I would weld a big nut that I did have a wrench for on top of the pulley bolt. Or if I had a lot of time put it in the vise and grind down the flats on the head and get it close enough to jam a socket on.
This looks manufactured or modified with a mill. It's not entirely impossible that some farmer brought a 30mm bolt to a machinist friend and said "make this 1 1/8 for me please" but most of us farmers would just do what gets things running the quickest. And if it runs, and looks like it will continue to run, we don't worry about it.
Somewhere out in the world there's a Massey Ferguson tractor with a deep 3/8 socket pushing the brake rod for the internal wet brakes because it worked at the time. When the part came in two weeks later I didn't have time to install it. Now the tractor is gone and the parts still sit on the shelf.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 36hp teardown & questions Reply with quote

So while I let the penetrating oil do its thing in the cylinders I'm continuing to strip the case of its components. I was looking at the front of the crank and saw these stamps.
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I was wondering if anyone knows what they are. More inspection marks? rebuilders marks? It's a regular bowl of alphabet soup whatever they mean.

Anyway, I ordered an AMR300 supercharger, sat down and calculated how fast I need to spin it to get 6 lbs of boost (around what the Judsons were rated at I believe). I also plan on using the 69.5 WW crank, so this will end up being between 1300-1400cc once I decide on the P&C. My question is how much carburetion will I need to get the most out of this engine? I have a 28pci but it feels too small, what do people think? I know I'm using a "new" supercharger but I would like to stay vintage with the carb, I figure I can camouflage the newness of the blower so it looks more period correct.
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