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68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install
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GeoJack
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:28 pm    Post subject: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

Anyone made this change over? Jbugs doesn't have instructions for what they sell.
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Matt Wilson
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

I couldn't really find the kit you are talking about on the JBugs website, but I envision some rods that replace the torsion leaf spring packs. The rods 'skewer' through the trailing arms side-to-side, and shocks must now be replaced with coilover units. The rods pivot and act as somewhat of a swaybar.

The trailing arms have little steel caps that are pressed into the exposed ends. You can stick a long rod in there and just knock them out.

If you have a link to the kit, that would help.
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GeoJack
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

https://www.jbugs.com/product/17-2545.html

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Need to know how to set the end nuts to the shafts and whether it floats in the middle or do I reinstall the grub screws?

And, are the end caps left off and open?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

I would assume that these are left to float in the middle keyway, or the keyway is removed totally. You'll know if the bar doesn't fit through the keyway :)

The JBugs description is what I envisioned earlier. These allow a pivot point, keeping the trailing arms in the tubes, and you must use coil over shocks, since these bars 'delete' the springs.

The end caps are removed and the rod should protrude side-to-side to allow some landing area for the clamp collars. If I were you, I'd be sure to degrease and use some loctite on those clamps. You may do a test fit, stock ball joint trailing arms aren't nice and square on that capped end - I wonder if you may end up needing a little machine work to get the clamp collars nice and flat to the trailing arm??
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GeoJack
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

Bars are through the keyway and have protruding, waiting on ball joints to reassemble.

I would assume the adjustment for the nuts is to make them flush with the outside of the arm. If the bars are locked it seems they would have significant torque applied to the end nuts if they provide any torsion control.

Machine fit with a five lb drilling hammer?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

Round peg in a square hole - i wonder how well these work long-term? I know some of the vintage Formula Vees do something similar, since the front is so light. They only put an abbreviated spring pack on the bottom, and remove the top spring, but still need a pivot point.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

For ball joint front ends (Bug, not Thing), remove the bottom spring. Thatís a stronger setup than removing the top spring. Ball joints are always stronger in compression than in tension. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

If you are trying to make a long travel ball joint front beam it wont work, the ball joints are limiting factor, they only have so much travel before they bind up.
Some have tried to use "Lowered Ball joints" to get more travel but they are weak because they turn the stud down to get the extra movement out of them and they will break with any spirited off roading.

eQ
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

What is the reason you want to install "through bars" ?
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GeoJack
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

Currently getting about 2.5" of travel when I apply my 190 lbs to the bumper and jump up and down. Want to soften the ride which would be a bit more travel on the shocks, less rebound from the torsion bars. Have coil overs on already. Mostly street driving and some backroads so not looking to do the Baja 1000 or modify the stock travel.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

Vanapplebomb wrote:
For ball joint front ends (Bug, not Thing), remove the bottom spring. Thatís a stronger setup than removing the top spring. Ball joints are always stronger in compression than in tension. Wink


I have coil overs, very stiff. I'm under the assumption that I need to remove both for this setup.

I'm thinking I just need to do it as it should be, test the results and report as it doesn't seem anyone so far has done this to their baja.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

earthquake wrote:
If you are trying to make a long travel ball joint front beam it wont work, the ball joints are limiting factor, they only have so much travel before they bind up.
Some have tried to use "Lowered Ball joints" to get more travel but they are weak because they turn the stud down to get the extra movement out of them and they will break with any spirited off roading.

eQ


Nope, not trying to do that.
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

GeoJack wrote:
https://www.jbugs.com/product/17-2545.html

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Need to know how to set the end nuts to the shafts and whether it floats in the middle or do I reinstall the grub screws?

And, are the end caps left off and open?



THE thru rods use the threaded collars to lock the trailing arms in place and are placed on end of thru rod and probably just wrenched tight enough to keep trailing arm in beam but not in a bind situation.... There is probably nothing in middle of thru rod to put center grub screws into ( might replace grub screws to keep dirt and water out of beam) ... The thru rod with collars are there to allow trailing arms to pivot freely but not exit the beam...

Think of thru rod and collars as a bolt and nut concept...

Dale
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

GeoJack wrote:
Vanapplebomb wrote:
For ball joint front ends (Bug, not Thing), remove the bottom spring. Thatís a stronger setup than removing the top spring. Ball joints are always stronger in compression than in tension. Wink


I have coil overs, very stiff. I'm under the assumption that I need to remove both for this.


Define coil over. There are coil overs that are made to look neat ,stiffen the existing suspension some, and are cheap. Then there are coil Over shocks that are made to support the weight of your vehicle. Itís easy to know what you have. The real coil over shocks are generally upwards of $200 per shock, so if you purchased them yourself you would know. Also, visually, they are quite different.

Either way, I wouldnít ever run coil overs, of either sort, on a bug ball joint beam. Thatís a lot of extra stress in that lower ball joint that doesnít need to be there. If you remove the torsion leaves, and then run a true coil over shock attached to the stock mounting location on the lower control arm, 100% of the weight on the front tires will be carried by your lower ball joints. Thatís just asking for trouble. You could get away with it on a light street only thing, but I wouldnít get behind the wheel of one if it left the pavement.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

This is kinda what I think of when I hear coil-overs and through rods ...
(From the show off your baja gallery)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

Gentlemen, with all due respect, I am looking for those who have used this kit only. Not really looking for anything other than that. There must be a reason these kits exist right? SOMEBODY used them.

Again, mainly street driving, some country back roads as well but I am not, I repeat, NOT flying my baja down rough dirt roads or off roading in ANY condition that would see my front tires leave the ground. OK? My wife and I are 68 / 65 and get our enjoyment from just driving the baja, not racing or any speed related fun.

The most I am looking for is to be able to go over a speed bump in a parking lot without the front end feeling like it is bolted together with no travel or suspension.

So, going from top and bottom torsion bars to no torsion bars with through bars installed.

Please, if you haven't installed these before, refrain from responding so that I can just get the info I am looking for.

As for "coil over shocks", Google it. https://www.google.com/search?q=coil+over+shocks&a...p;ie=UTF-8

Hard pressed to find those on the red baja, impressive but not truly what is shown when you look up "coil over shocks". I have adjustable coil overs, in that there is a coiled spring "over" the shock. eh.

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If, after installation I find them too soft I will adjust the shocks accordingly. If that still isn't what I want I will make necessary changes to get there.

Once again, thank you very much for your responses.
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Matt Wilson
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

Again, the only reason these exist, is to use tune-able coil over shocks in place of the torsion leaf spring packs. The thru bars provide a pivot point, retaining the trailing arms concentric within the axle tubes. [There are kits that will delete rear springs too, where people want to remove the torsion bars and replace with coil spring shocks. You still need that pivot point for the suspension.] These thru bars are probably better suited for a king and linkpin front end, but would work for balljoint suspension - it doesn't sounds like you are hammering on your vehicle.

If you remove your leaf springs, you have to still somehow lift the vehicle - the EMPI coil assist gas shocks are not true coilovers, and are not intended to lift your suspension completely, and would be very soft on their own. The EMPI spring gives a slight extra lift to augment stock springs and lend the illusion of slight adjustability.

Not exactly sure your motivation for using these instead of using the torsion leaves. These through bars are not torsion bars like the rear suspension uses, although they may give a sway bar effect depending how they are used. Stock leaf springs can be twisted quite a bit and used off road with longevity.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

Something you may want to think about, shock towers were never intended to support the weight of vehicle.... If you are going full through rods (upper and lower) with coil over's best to reinforce shock towers or there is the possibility of fatigue and collapse, probably at just the wrong time too....

Dale
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

Sorry ... I was just trying to show you the only way to run through bars.

You seem adamant about running empi coil over shocks and through bars. I always say I think baja bugs are like pinewood derby's, and you get to build them any way YOU want. Good luck to you, but I don't think you'll find anybody to comment that has already done it your way.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 68 Baja front torsion bar removal and through bar install Reply with quote

On my lightweight tube frame buggy I found that my front end was pushed up against the stops all the time and it rode terribly rough because of that. I pulled all the torsion leaves, cleaned out the beam as much as I could and installed a new set of leaves on the bottom only and use a thru rod on the top and this put the ride height at the right spot and it rides great now. I have new, pressurized gas shocks on there too. I used fender washers and bought castle nuts so once I got it tightened and adjusted just right I drilled the rods, installed cotter pins and then whacked off the excess threaded sections on each side so it's a nice and clean looking install.
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