Author |
Message |
Madscientist2 Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: Massachusetts
|
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:38 pm Post subject: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
I’ve built up the case already on a 1584 cc engine. Put in a performance cam, ratio rockers, porting the heads, dual ICT carbs, and other updates. I didn’t update the crank or flywheel to 8 dowels. From what I’ve learned the engine should produce about 75 HP. I do not plan to rev it higher than 4500 rpm. Questions: do I need 8 dowels? And, since the crank is already installed in the case halves, if I should 8 dowel, can the crank be drilled when in the case. No heads or cylinders installed yet. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
|
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
4 will be fine. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3804 Location: Georgia
|
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
I concur. _________________ Volkswagen!
Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.
“Let he that is without oil throw the first rod”
(Compression 8.7:1) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bsairhead Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008 Posts: 3475 Location: viroqua wi.
|
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
Torque it properly. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Madscientist2 Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: Massachusetts
|
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
Torque of 250 ft-lbs, or more? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Madscientist2 Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: Massachusetts
|
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
Should the gland nut be installed with loctite? Standard washer or oversized empi washer? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
|
Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:59 pm Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
Get a better gland nut and wash her. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:45 am Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
If its for a off road buggy then yes on more dowels _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:59 am Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
Stock torque value is fine as is the stock 4 dowels. With the cam change you in all likely hood have not increased the engine's torque from stock. The only way you will brake the dowel connection with that engine is to get stupid on the clutch with big sticky tires.
I have put together quite a few stock 1584s in the past with the stock parts and torque values, no Loctite and have never had one fail. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Madscientist2 Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: Massachusetts
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:04 am Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
I did get the empi chromoly gland nut with a large cupped washer. First time I put it together, the washer lost its cupped shape and got flat. The head of the nut dug into the washer quite notably. So when I put it together the last time I used the empi nut but with the stock washer. On the other question, this is not for an off road application |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3228 Location: Rapid City, SD
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:38 am Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
I have never built an engine WITHOUT doing the 8 dowels, but I have taken apart quite a few bone stock 4 dowel engines with messed up cranks and flywheels.
Brian _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:36 am Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
You cannot blame the stock flywheel connection without knowledge of history of the failure. Some guys can break a crowbar in a sandbox! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raymon covey Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005 Posts: 188
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:43 am Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
Are you going to do burn outs in the parking lot LOL !!!!!!!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3228 Location: Rapid City, SD
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
oprn wrote: |
You cannot blame the stock flywheel connection without knowledge of history of the failure. Some guys can break a crowbar in a sandbox! |
I am not blaming a shitty mechanic, or abuse, just pointing out an inherently weak connection, known to fail even on stock engines. This guy has done things to his engine that will hopefully increase the power over a stock engine, making the already weak connection even weaker. I agree, and have seen guys who can break anything. Those guys are helpless regardless of what is done to their junk.
Porsche used 8 dowels on their engines that were a similar output to what his engine might be. Maybe they knew what they were doing??
Brian _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
I have seen too many stock gland nuts strip out and ruin 4 dowels.
Fault of many things...
I always 8-dowel. I have the fixture and can do the crank and flywheel as a unit. I can even do it with the motor assembled.
Always use a Chromoly gland nut too.
Just extra insurance that it will never fail.
Cheap and easy to do.... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3228 Location: Rapid City, SD
|
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
Ohio Tom wrote: |
Just extra insurance that it will never fail.
Cheap and easy to do.... |
EXACTLY!! _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
earthquake Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008 Posts: 3984 Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
|
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:08 am Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
Make sure the dowels don't stick up past the flywheel or it wont torque proper.
eQ _________________ 74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nsracing Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003 Posts: 9437 Location: NOVA
|
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:59 am Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
The more the marrier to me. They sell 8-dowelling kit. GEt one. If you have a drill press, then you are golden.
8-dowelling helps the crank/flywheel mating a lot. YOu can use a stock glandnut too. Or upgrade to the HD kinds.
Hope this helps. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:11 am Post subject: Re: 8 doweling a stock crank and flywheel-needed? |
|
|
Madscientist2 wrote: |
I’ve built up the case already on a 1584 cc engine. Put in a performance cam, ratio rockers, porting the heads, dual ICT carbs, and other updates. I didn’t update the crank or flywheel to 8 dowels. From what I’ve learned the engine should produce about 75 HP. I do not plan to rev it higher than 4500 rpm. Questions: do I need 8 dowels? And, since the crank is already installed in the case halves, if I should 8 dowel, can the crank be drilled when in the case. No heads or cylinders installed yet. |
As menthioned, 8 dowels is a good thing, but not absolutely nessessary, and not for the power window you are in. That said I would definitely replace that Empi gland nut and washer. Another item from that company that I will never use in its current quality. Scat, CB and even the HD ones AA sells are OK.
The reason to use the larger washer is that you apply clamping force to a much larger surface which reduce the risk of the flywheel bananing ever so slightly at the mating surface. Also, with a quality gland nut you can safely increase torque to 280 ft lbs. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|