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VW Man 53 Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2011 Posts: 588 Location: Scotia, New York
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:55 pm Post subject: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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Hey guys, i've built plenty of stock vw engines, i've had my hands in plenty of other things, i'm in the midst of rebuilding a cummins V6 V-378 out of a front end loader. I've never done any kind of hot rodding to anything, i have a 65 bug i've mostly completed bodywork and paint on, i tore down a 1200 i got for cheap for the 65 that was seized up and free'd it up pretty easily. I have shelves, totes and cabinets, full of NOS and used parts.
The engine actually looks really sweet inside, no ridge on the cylinders, probably low miles, i cleaned it up nice, my plan in my head is as follows. (Fair warning as i said, i'm going off of reading books, and forums, i have no performance experience, so feel free to give me your input, it's what i'm here for.)
-I'm going to get the case cut for stock size camshaft bearings (feel free to advise me if you know someone who can do this for me besides Rimco in Cali, i'm in NY)
- I'll be using the stock 69mm crank from a 1600 with NOS 1200 connecting rods which will give me 5 more mm of stroke compared to the stock 1200 crank
- Stock 1200 77mm Pistons and i'm going to remove 2.46mm of material off the top of each piston
- By removing that much material, my combustion chamber will be .100" tighter than stock, raising compression
- I have two exceptionally nice zenith 32 carburetors, each on their own center mount manifold, i hope to rebuild one and run it on a center mount
- I'm considering possible adjustments to the valve train as far as size, possibly a mild cam? feel free to let me know what you think, i'm just experimenting for fun here. Looking for the wisdom of those who have experimented.
_________________ You CAN save them all. |
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TinCanFab Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 2743 Location: Waterford, California
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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Do you know that the 1200 rods wont fit a 1600 crank without clearancing the sides? You can get shims to raise the cylinders up rather than cut on the pistons. I believe AA sells them now for 77mm pistons. A header and running your carbs as duals and a very mild cam is all you need. You can get away with more aggressive cams with dual carbs. VW limited the hp in stock form by choking the intake and exhaust. They did this on purpose so people wouldnt drive them hard for warranty purposes. _________________ Check out my truck brought back from the dead... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420762&highlight=sprayed+blood
They're never really ever finished 58 rag build...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658092 |
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VW Man 53 Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2011 Posts: 588 Location: Scotia, New York
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Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:03 am Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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TinCanFab wrote: |
Do you know that the 1200 rods wont fit a 1600 crank without clearancing the sides? You can get shims to raise the cylinders up rather than cut on the pistons. I believe AA sells them now for 77mm pistons. A header and running your carbs as duals and a very mild cam is all you need. You can get away with more aggressive cams with dual carbs. VW limited the hp in stock form by choking the intake and exhaust. They did this on purpose so people wouldnt drive them hard for warranty purposes. |
I have read that, something like .020 of material off each side of the 1200 rod big end? Is there an disadvantage to running pistons shaved down that amount? i'm going with that approach so i don't have to modify a center mount intake if i go with that setup, I've been knee deep in the "how to hotrod your vw engine" book and from what i'm reading i might get better performance with a center mount zenith rather than duals, i'll post the setup i have, they are mounted to 1 and 1/4" intakes. I plan to mock up a the case with that crank, rod, and piston to calculate what my compression ratio would be sometime this week. Thanks for your input! _________________ You CAN save them all. |
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VW Man 53 Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2011 Posts: 588 Location: Scotia, New York
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Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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I went ahead and mocked up one cylinder with a cracked piston and old rod to calculate my compression ratio.
With my intended clearances regardless of whether i shim the cylinder, machine the piston down, or both (decreasing the current height by 2.36mm (.093"), my deck height will 1.08 mm (.042")
from what i've read that will give me between 7.4:1 and 7.7:1 compression ratio, which is dependent on where my heads fall from 43-45cc's which is what they should be at from the factory.
My questions at this point are:
-Has anyone removed material from piston hats? how much in your experience is it okay to remove?
-If i use shims and a center mount carb, how much shimming have people gotten away with before they had to modify their manifold?
-Do you feel those compression ratios will be suitable for reliability and longevity of the components i'm choosing?
-what mild cams do you feel might be suitable for the way this build is looking?
I included pictures of the carbs and piston hats below, the blue intake is slightly different from the silver, it has a bend in the preheat riser and the remnants of an empi sticker. thanks for reading.
_________________ You CAN save them all. |
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Mr. Mike Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2015 Posts: 513 Location: Shoreline, WA
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Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:47 am Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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Looks to be a fun project! You may want to read up on the buyer and seller feedback page before using the services of Rimco or anyone out there.
Cheers!
Mike _________________ 1964 Sedan 6 volt |
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VW Man 53 Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2011 Posts: 588 Location: Scotia, New York
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:49 am Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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Well sounds like Rimco is out of the question, anybody have a better recommendation for getting cam bearing saddles cut into my 1200? Thanks man! _________________ You CAN save them all. |
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anthracitedub Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007 Posts: 3241 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:10 am Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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Mofoco has done them. |
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VW Man 53 Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2011 Posts: 588 Location: Scotia, New York
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:04 am Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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anthracitedub wrote: |
Mofoco has done them. |
i called and he said he doesn't have the bore bar to do it anymore. _________________ You CAN save them all. |
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anthracitedub Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007 Posts: 3241 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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That’s too bad... he done a case for me a few years ago... and i have 2 more I’d like to do in the future. |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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check the piston dome thickness, if its thick than I would cut them witch would also lighten them. if you were after max cr then you could machine them for max cr too leaving the portion thats up in the chamber there and taking off at the quench area's. ( AKA pop up piston's/domed pistons). I would go with lots of port work&bigger valves and devider between the ports separating them as far as possiable...witch to me would be up to withen 2" on the carbs or run 2 bbls carbs on each head and keep the runners separate the entire way. thus bigger carbs bigger power, more tq.more cam shaft too. good luck with your project, and stay way from rimco's rim jobs. if I were 30 years younger and had time and old motor.....I would have a fun time making something. |
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VW Man 53 Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2011 Posts: 588 Location: Scotia, New York
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Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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mark tucker wrote: |
check the piston dome thickness, if its thick than I would cut them witch would also lighten them. if you were after max cr then you could machine them for max cr too leaving the portion thats up in the chamber there and taking off at the quench area's. ( AKA pop up piston's/domed pistons). I would go with lots of port work&bigger valves and devider between the ports separating them as far as possiable...witch to me would be up to withen 2" on the carbs or run 2 bbls carbs on each head and keep the runners separate the entire way. thus bigger carbs bigger power, more tq.more cam shaft too. good luck with your project, and stay way from rimco's rim jobs. if I were 30 years younger and had time and old motor.....I would have a fun time making something. |
i posted the piston thickness up top, how much do you think is safe to remove without compromising the strength of the piston hat? _________________ You CAN save them all. |
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anthracitedub Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007 Posts: 3241 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:39 am Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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FWIW, I recently built a 69x77 40 horse. I shimmed the cylinders, the stock intake bends open to accommodate the width change quite easily. |
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VW Man 53 Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2011 Posts: 588 Location: Scotia, New York
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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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anthracitedub wrote: |
FWIW, I recently built a 69x77 40 horse. I shimmed the cylinders, the stock intake bends open to accommodate the width change quite easily. |
do you remember what size shims you were running? did you run a case without cam bearings? _________________ You CAN save them all. |
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bcrazy Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009 Posts: 231 Location: Oslo
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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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VW Man 53 wrote: |
mark tucker wrote: |
check the piston dome thickness, if its thick than I would cut them witch would also lighten them. if you were after max cr then you could machine them for max cr too leaving the portion thats up in the chamber there and taking off at the quench area's. ( AKA pop up piston's/domed pistons). I would go with lots of port work&bigger valves and devider between the ports separating them as far as possiable...witch to me would be up to withen 2" on the carbs or run 2 bbls carbs on each head and keep the runners separate the entire way. thus bigger carbs bigger power, more tq.more cam shaft too. good luck with your project, and stay way from rimco's rim jobs. if I were 30 years younger and had time and old motor.....I would have a fun time making something. |
i posted the piston thickness up top, how much do you think is safe to remove without compromising the strength of the piston hat? |
You need to measure in the center of the piston. It is very unlike that it is 0.323in in the centre, just because that is the distance to the top ring |
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anthracitedub Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007 Posts: 3241 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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VW Man 53 wrote: |
anthracitedub wrote: |
FWIW, I recently built a 69x77 40 horse. I shimmed the cylinders, the stock intake bends open to accommodate the width change quite easily. |
do you remember what size shims you were running? did you run a case without cam bearings? |
I think the shims were .100, I made them out of aluminum. I ground the rods .020 on each side of the big end. Mofoco did my line bore, cam bore and case savers on a early 60’s 40H case. I have a CW crank and I balanced the rods, stock cam and stock rebuilt square boss heads. 28 carb and an old .009.
It runs great, p much stock feeling but really smooth, and maybe, just maybe if you think real hard, you can feel the extra displacement with that crank 😊
I built it this way just for the hell of it. I was planning on putting 83s on it and building a set of dual 28s.... but now I have a couple of new engine builds I’m might use those on. |
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VW Man 53 Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2011 Posts: 588 Location: Scotia, New York
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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: First time vintage speed 1200 build, looking for input. |
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bcrazy wrote: |
VW Man 53 wrote: |
mark tucker wrote: |
check the piston dome thickness, if its thick than I would cut them witch would also lighten them. if you were after max cr then you could machine them for max cr too leaving the portion thats up in the chamber there and taking off at the quench area's. ( AKA pop up piston's/domed pistons). I would go with lots of port work&bigger valves and devider between the ports separating them as far as possiable...witch to me would be up to withen 2" on the carbs or run 2 bbls carbs on each head and keep the runners separate the entire way. thus bigger carbs bigger power, more tq.more cam shaft too. good luck with your project, and stay way from rimco's rim jobs. if I were 30 years younger and had time and old motor.....I would have a fun time making something. |
i posted the piston thickness up top, how much do you think is safe to remove without compromising the strength of the piston hat? |
You need to measure in the center of the piston. It is very unlike that it is 0.323in in the centre, just because that is the distance to the top ring |
believe it or not, i actually did, and the measurement is pretty close to the same. _________________ You CAN save them all. |
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