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mcdragracer
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Joined: December 30, 2007
Posts: 714
Location: Cally
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 Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:56 pm Post subject: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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Working on a 2L T4 eng for a customer in a manx buggy 9.5 to1 comp, mild performance ported heads, mild performance cam, stock rockers, 44 idf webers, just going to be a fun occasional street driving vehicle for him, looking to run ngk plugs.
Thanks in advance! |
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Wreck
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Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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| NGK BP6ET's triple electrode plug have worked fine for me . |
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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:04 am Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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Me too.
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nextgen
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Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6032
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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Mcdragracer and guys,
The issue I had with the Triple plugs was that I use a Jacobs Ignition and they recommend stock heavy duty plugs like the NGK and I felt the stock plug ran better.
Rick I am sure you remember. The Triple plugs are pre gapped most likely .028 and I did not want to open them up to a .040 - .050 gap.
I have not heard of anyone not liking the Triple plugs except me and that was because I did not want to open up the gap.
Still have the Triple Plugs on my work bench.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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Open them up and try them nextgen, it's not hard to do at all. The first one took me about 15 minutes to figure out and the next 3 went way faster. The last one only took 5 minutes.
To me the biggest advantage on an NA engine is you get 3 times the life out of them because of the increased wearing surface. On my boosted engine they just plane fired at higher boost pressures than any single contact plug would.
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mcdragracer
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Joined: December 30, 2007
Posts: 714
Location: Cally
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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| nextgen wrote: |
Mcdragracer and guys,
The issue I had with the Triple plugs was that I use a Jacobs Ignition and they recommend stock heavy duty plugs like the NGK and I felt the stock plug ran better.
Rick I am sure you remember. The Triple plugs are pre gapped most likely .028 and I did not want to open them up to a .040 - .050 gap.
I have not heard of anyone not liking the Triple plugs except me and that was because I did not want to open up the gap.
Still have the Triple Plugs on my work bench. |
Yes I do remember the conversation about the triple plugs, although I think I might get a set, just running a blue coil with an 009, they got to be better than the bosch and ngk combo in there now😱 |
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nextgen
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Posts: 6032
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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| nextgen wrote: |
Mcdragracer and guys,
The issue I had with the Triple plugs was that I use a Jacobs Ignition and they recommend stock heavy duty plugs like the NGK and I felt the stock plug ran better.
Rick I am sure you remember. The Triple plugs are pre gapped most likely .028 and I did not want to open them up to a .040 - .050 gap.
I have not heard of anyone not liking the Triple plugs except me and that was because I did not want to open up the gap.
Still have the Triple Plugs on my work bench. |
Who told you that you cannot use triples with a Jacobs system?
The stock gap on Bosch W7DTC and NGK BP6ET triples is 0.8mm or .032". You can gap them at anything you want. I typically gap them at 1.0mm or ~0.040".
Just buy the correct gapping tool.....and you MUST be precise. In order for these to work properly, each of the three gaps need to be virtually identical.
The Bosch instruction on gapping is to gap them to the next size up.....and then tap the side of dach electrode lightly inward until you reach the exach target on the gauge pin. And....Bosch does not recommend gapping more than 0.008" in eitjer direction or the angle ground on the face or edge of the side electrode will be too far out of alignment to the side wall of the center electrode.
Here is the correct tool for all side firing triples and other single or multi-electrode side firing plugs.
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-bosch-parts/spark-plug-gap-gauge/0986600000~bos/
The part # is 0 986 600 000. ECS says no longer available. But if you look around on line there are plenty available.
I find it interesting that the guys from Jacob's would say the triples....which are standard ytrium/copper....wont work ....but reccomend a single electrode....same size, same material....ytrium/copper....same resistance.
If this is simply "gap based".....I would ask whether they bothered to simply correct or adjust the gap.
Ray |
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nextgen
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Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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Ray I remember you and I going over this a year or two ago.
I installed my Jacobs Omni Pak in my bug at least 25 years ago.. I spoke to the Tech guy on the phone we discussed wires and plug.
As for what is in the instructions I received. It stated the Following.
"Use the same type plug and heat range to get the best results from the Omni Pak. Jacobs prefers Autolite, Champion and NGK.
Do not use Non Steel Plugs or Multiple Electrodes unless recommended by Engine Manufacture".
The it goes on with a chart showing for any improvement such as performance were etc to increase gap by .005 per improvement. It said I could go up to .050 but I figured, by saying at .040 to ,045 it was going to burn up to .050 anyway.
Ray as hard as it was for you to believe that is what it said and under it was the Limited warranty, which I did not want to lose by not following their instructions.
Hay the original plug the multi replaced works fine, for 25 years.
I am not in any way saying the multi plug is not a better plug, I was just lazy due to the fact I was problems with my Duel Carbs. n
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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| nextgen wrote: |
Ray I remember you and I going over this a year or two ago.
I installed my Jacobs Omni Pak in my bug at least 25 years ago.. I spoke to the Tech guy on the phone we discussed wires and plug.
As for what is in the instructions I received. It stated the Following.
"Use the same type plug and heat range to get the best results from the Omni Pak. Jacobs prefers Autolite, Champion and NGK.
Do not use Non Steel Plugs or Multiple Electrodes unless recommended by Engine Manufacture".
The it goes on with a chart showing for any improvement such as performance were etc to increase gap by .005 per improvement. It said I could go up to .050 but I figured, by saying at .040 to ,045 it was going to burn up to .050 anyway.
Ray as hard as it was for you to believe that is what it said and under it was the Limited warranty, which I did not want to lose by not following their instructions.
Hay the original plug the multi replaced works fine, for 25 years.
I am not in any way saying the multi plug is not a better plug, I was just lazy due to the fact I was problems with my Duel Carbs. n |
The Jacobs system is excellent.....but its not magic. If the heat range and resistance are the same....a plug....any plug should be usable. The differences from there are within the "design" of the plug (i.e. extended, non extended, side versus top gap, air gap, multiple electrodes, single electrodes, X gap etc etc.).....yes.....those "design" differences can create improvements or non improvements.....but none of them have anything to do with the COIL.
Some of these design differences exploit cooling, sealing, flame front or flame kernel propagation, resist fouling or detonation etc.....
But Once the electrode metal, heat range and gap have been satisfied.....for the coils needs.....the rest should be within the tuning realm of the owner and the specific application.
Yep....I get it.....Jacobs was trying to keep purchasers of their coils working within the range of ONLY what THEY knew would work to a guaranteed level. This does not mean I would wager.....that they had tested every type or plug and wire.
But if all they were concerned with was gap.....and that was what excluded triple electrode plugs in their mind.....that could have been as simple as a call to either Bosch or NGK to find out what the plugs could be gapped to.
That....and the Bosch W7DTC and the NGK BP6ET....are not the only triple plugs in either manufacturers inventory. They have had others with same thread and sometimes smaller hex that had a range of standard gaps and heat ranges.
Anyway.....isnt Jacobs out of business? They went Prestolite....then Mallory....then MSD....and then Accel.....each mfg robbing the original tech and then dropping the line.
Now you can properly gap and try anything you want without voiding your warranty! Ray |
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nextgen
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Igpoe
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Location: South Boston, VA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:24 am Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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I'm glad I drive an ordinary Volkswagen, not needing all the over-engineered stuff.
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oprn
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Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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Back in about '72 I bought my first set of Champion plugs for my Beetle. When I took them back out to check the color the aluminum threads came out of the heads with the plugs on all 4 cylinders! That is the last set of Champions I ever bought!
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Vanapplebomb
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Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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Personally, I am simple. I like being able to just stick a feeler gauge in and gap it old school style. That said, there is something to be said for the newer design plugs, especially with upgraded ignition and FI.
I compromise a bit and go middle ground. I use NGK wire tip plugs where the insulator protrude into the combustion chamber a ways. They have a very fine Iridium wire for the electrode. You can open up the gap a bit with them, even with a stock coil. Same voltage can jump a bigger gap than most non wire plugs.
They also have a tri-metal plating on the threads that keeps them from seizing in aluminum heads. If the outside later seizes, the dissimilar layers of plating separate and the plugs back out without pulling the aluminum threads.
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nextgen
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Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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Some of us do not have the real experience or equipment of some of the engine builders on this news group.
We stick something in and ask questions, then put in another part to compensate for the way the engine is now running. It may run better or not, it sometimes becomes quite a bit frustrating. Till we get to a point were we feel it running good enough.
We finally get enjoyment from the ride and from the smiles from the people we pass on the road.
That lasts for a while then we stick something else in and an ask more questions.
javascript:emoticon(' ')
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Personally, I am simple. I like being able to just stick a feeler gauge in and gap it old school style. That said, there is something to be said for the newer design plugs, especially with upgraded ignition and FI.
I compromise a bit and go middle ground. I use NGK wire tip plugs where the insulator protrude into the combustion chamber a ways. They have a very fine Iridium wire for the electrode. You can open up the gap a bit with them, even with a stock coil. Same voltage can jump a bigger gap than most non wire plugs.
They also have a tri-metal plating on the threads that keeps them from seizing in aluminum heads. If the outside later seizes, the dissimilar layers of plating separate and the plugs back out without pulling the aluminum threads. |
Yep...I get the simplicity thing....but I try hard with these plugs to quell the two common misconceptions.
1. The belief of no benefit. Which is 100% untrue....depending on application 
Its like any other ignition or fuel system part with a slightly different design or specification. If someone tries one of these plugs and simply screws it in and exclaims....."no difference"....then there was either no difference to be had....WITH YOUR APPLICATION....or you did no tuning to exploit the benefits this part could bring to your application.
2. Gapping a plug is gapping a plug. You are either accurate...or not.
Tell you this...don't know what everyone else drives...but any modern VAG product (and most BMW and Mercedes, Volvo etc.)....you get sloppy gaps with a couple thousandths difference...or gapped crooked with a crappy ramp type gauge....and it changes idle and response quite a bit.
The only difference in these plugs is the type of gauge and the need to set all three gaps exact to each other. But re-gapping...maybe every 40k miles. And then...since the gap has grown...re-gapping is dead simple.
As for the NGK plugs...excellent plugs.....while the plating they have is different than Bosch plugs. Both are nickel plated....electroless to be exact. For our needs...in aluminum heads...both are equal. In fact the Bosch is harder wear wise.
NGK calls their plating "Tri-valent". While some would suspect that to mean its passivated with "trivalent chrome"....a replacement for Chrome 6.......from the appearance....which is slightly duller, softer and less smooth than Bosch spark plug nickel plating.....I can tell you that its "probably"....Trivalent zinc nickel.....which in certain respects is bad-ass.
This is "zink-nickel" electroless plating which is about as rust resistant as you can ever get. EVER.
While nickel is very hard, fine grained and by itself will NEVER rust.....it has the problem of once you chip, crack or wear through the plated surface...the ferrous metal underneath WILL rust ...downward and laterally. away from the nickel plating...creating craters underneath the plated surface.
So in cast iron heads or steel thread inserts...which CAN possibly chip the nickel plating....The zinc added to the NGK plating...creates a sacrificial anode (just like anything zinc plated).
This zinc-nickel plating is then dipped with a trivalent chrome to keep the air from starting to oxidize the zinc ...which is normal. Hence the "tri-valent" terminology.
This is why when a NGK plug is more than a handful of months old in the box...when you pull it out and compare it to a Bosch pug...its plating looks dull. Its because the zinc in the nickel is starting to oxidize. It does not hurt it.
So while the NGK plating is more adavnced....it has no extra benefits for our application.
In triples.....NGK and Bosch are both great plugs. Interchangeable .
By the way...the triple plugs are not new or exotic.
They have been around since probably the 50's or 60's. They were a high compression, high rpm motorcycle plug long before cars. Their specific use is high compression, lean burn, hard to ignite engines.
Ray |
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nextgen
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nextgen
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Plug recomendation for 2L T4 Engine |
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[quote="nextgen"]Old J. C. Whitney Catalog
Well similar. ( no Spark ) ha.
file:///C:/Users/Joe/Downloads/JCW%201971%20-%20Fire%20Injector.pdf[/quot
While your link does not work....google JC,whitney fire injector 1971. It will take you to a,bmw 2002 forum with an embedded pdf.
So.....tbe "fire injector ".....is not anything like the triple electrode plugs. The only similarity is that they ARE side firing on the center electrode.
The fire injectors are technically called "semi surtace discharge"....only because they actually have a visible center electrode that protrudes high enough to allow the ring around the aide (the side electrode).....to fire in a receased fashion laterally across the surtace.
Theoe plugs are 100% designed to prevent carbon fouling. Thats their function. Another version.....with no protruding side or center electrodes....called "surface discharge".....were used on Wankel rotary engines.
The triples were originally designed (according to NGk).....to provide a relatively standard plug that is lower...protrudes less.....into the combustion chamber of engines that just uave no room....very tight deck.....high compression.
But...other benefits were later found.....and that being that the multiple electrodes....all being equal....provide more chances to have a better ground with less resistance to ionization....llwer voltage required to create the arc........because....at any given millisecond .....one of those three electrodes WILL have lower resistance than the other two (and rarepy the same one twice in a row).
This resistance variability comes from a mixture of variables from temperature....to air density of the compressed mixture around the electrodes......turbulence.....how much fuel is in the mixture next to each electrode....which changes the conductivity of the mixture etc. Etc.
They work well.....more reliably with less missing.... in high compression engines with high voltage ignitions. ....and especially in lean burn engines because these are also technically a "semi-surface discharge" plug.
This is NGK'S take in their epectrode deaigns. Bosch's take is similar but with other comments.
https://www.ngk.com/ngk-ground-electrode-designs#:...20quickly.
Ray |
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