Vanaru Conversion complete, M. Steedle Trans - 2wd pics

[dsdunbar]

Hi All,
I've been off the Samba for a long time, but wanted to report back a couple of things, mostly good but some bad news for my tranny (spoiler - user error not rebuilder error)...

recap is in 2020 I had a vanaru swap in my '89 2wd manual westy, and had the transmission rebuilt by Matt Steedle. I did not like the loud noise of the muffler that came with the vanaru system, talked with my mechanic and switched it out for another one (can't recall the make) and the van noise was perfect.

As for transmission,
Rebuild completed with 148742 miles on odo (had Amalie GL-4 80w90)
First oil change 149386 mi (switched to I changed the trans oil at 200 miles, then 1000 mi later and then 2500 mi later. In 2020 I took a trip from VA to VT with a pretty loaded down van (not going to sugar coat it).
pics of van for this trip:

Sometime after this trip, I started to hear some "rubbing noises" when I would be parked with the clutch engaged (but out of gear). Mentioned it to my mechanic who said to talk to Steedle, so I sent Steedle a video of the sound and Matt figured it had to do with the length of the mainshaft bearing.

I had the trans pulled and sent off to Matt in December of 2020 (was using the van intermittingly and wanted it available if we had any open weekends for local camping trips in october). Steedle opened the trans and noticed that it wasnt the mainshaft but instead I had ruined the mainshaft and 4th gear (evidence of the needle rollers pounding into the inner gear wall).

The likely culprit, too much heat. After the VT trip I had the transfluid changed, and it came out a brown rusty color (which was surprising) but not much particles on the magnet. We now suspect the brown color was the gear oil being cooked.

For my VT trip I drove around 75 mph, sometimes touching 80 on I-95N, but primarily living in the 70 - 75mph range (where possible, non interstate roads were slower 50 - 65mph). I broke the trip up into two legs 6 hrs to PA and then 5 hrs to VT. (One the drive home we pushed straight through from VT to VA).

The gear oil we were using was nothing fancy:
Amalie GL-4 80w90 for the first 200 miles
Amalie 75w90 synthetic for the rest of the time.

Matt and I discussed a path forward, trying to make sure we dont end up at the same issue again (debated changing my 4th gear ratio back to stock from the 0.81 GT) but in the end the conclusion was to use a more specialized trans oil to take care of the heat, and I asked Matt to add a port so I could add a trans temp gauge to track the temps.

Steedle was great to work with through out all of this. Here are some pictures:

First trans oil change (going from regular to synthetic, approx 1k mi after rebuild):

Drain plug after Virginia to Vermont trip:

Picture of damage to mainshaft and gear from Steedle:

Anyways, the trans has been reassembled with a new GT4th (0.81) and a new mainshaft and any other parts that required replacement. I also had Matt tap the case for a temp probe for the gear oil. Steedle filled the trans with some super expensive luxury oil, I cant recall the name details but hopefully it will help prevent this occurring again.

Anyways, just wanted to post an update. comments welcome.
_________________
'89 2WD Westy "Grey Goose" - Manual 4spd
Crozet VA
Vanaru EJ25, Peloquin

[vanagonjr]

Did Matt mention what would be a safe operating temperature? Any thoughts/discussion on adding a cooler?
_________________
John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798

[Steve M.]

Honestly looks great, but that computer box mounted in the hot airflow off the radiator gives me the willies.
One it is getting hot air blown over a computer and two it is blocking the airflow from the radiator.
They could not mount that say longways alongside the throttle cable or somewhere else under the front?
I'd move it even though they may say they haven't seen any problems with heat.
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.

[Steve M.]

I'm surprised that you did not pick up on the oil cooling threads for the gearbox.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/search.php?q=transaxle%20oil%20cooling
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.

[dsdunbar]

[dsdunbar]

[Sodo]

Dana thats an extremely rich tranny post with many subjects and pics of issues Ive been “studying intently” for 5 years. Not as a professional though. But working with them. I’ll try to post some thoughts this evening.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[DanHoug]

the pict of the Drain plug after Virginia to Vermont trip is interesting... looks like water intrusion but i trust Matt's opinion that it is overheated oil. did you smell it?

so this aligns with what i've heard from rebuilders of BMW airhead motorcycle transmissions... that a moly fortified synthetic gear oil (read rilly expensive) reduces trans temps. perhaps reason alone enough to counter the 'run cheap oil and change often' school.

anyway, more grist for the mill. personally i feel good about running Swepco 202 and swapping it every year with a batch that has been settled for that year. it goes from opaque to OEM clear blue/green in that time. we need someone with a trans temp gauge to do a 100 mile run with cheap oil and another 100 miles with syn moly oil. same temp/wind of course <grin>.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[Sodo]

===Edit I 'refined' this post 3/10/21 (... think/hope I refined it) ====

I say: If you have a Big engine, KNOW your transaxle temperature before driving heavy or fast.

So you KNOW if your trans is in danger.

Regarding operating temps, the mainshaft bearing is LOOSE in a new gear carrier at 195*F.
Bad things happen when the mainshaft bearing moves in its bore.
The mainshaft moves (forward or rearward).
So some of us say 180°F is the max temp you should ever allow.
Others say: stay away from 180, use 160 'cuz if you don't have a brand new gear carrier, yours could be fully loose at 180°F.
Or on an old trans, old gear carrier,,,, even 160°F.
On an older trans, the mainshaft bearing could be loose sitting in the driveway.
But the 'accepted' max I am hearing is that 180°F a Vanagon trans is damaging itself.
I'd use 160°F.

You can drill the case without complete transaxle disassembly. It's just magnesium.
Hardened steel gears and bearings laugh at magnesium. It could be even funnier than bronze (yellow metals).
They don't laugh at "hardened steel" and everyone else is driving around with oil FULL of hardened steel which doesn't kill a trans immediately.
So magnesium? Just chuckle under your breath, and drill-baby-drill.

You can epoxy a sender to the case outside too.
I have mine INSIDE the oil, of course that's the best way, the response will be faster.
It seems appropriate that I should epoxy a sender on the outside and compare the response, so we can "know" that it's a reliable method.
I've had other theories that turned out 'wrong' in testing, so it's worthwhile.
I will try to test that soon.

OK temperature.
My van has more than a temperature gauge.
it has an electronic temperature-controlled cooler/filter system.
10 micron full-flow filter including a magnetic settling tank.
It NEVER exceeds 143°F.

I did a test-drive at 80MPH for long periods, like 1000 miles of it.
Temperature-controlled......with a 'new' rebuild at appx 15,000 miles.

When I got home I looked thru my filters, and was blown away at the amount of metal that I found in my ( extensive ! ) filtration system.
I think it's "duty cycle". Big engine pushing a little transaxle.
The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long so they say.
I think 1/4 as long in this case.

So DON'T think of temperature as the only problem to solve.
around 180°F is an indicator that you are doing damage NOW,
but
Duty-cycle is what you should keep in mind .... for the long haul.

Like when they say some feller has more money than brains?
Over-engined fellers have more horsepower than steel.

======= OK that's temperature. On to the lines ==========

Worthwhile to read this: https://www.linearmotiontips.com/how-bearings-fail-a-closer-look-at-brinelling/
It's short, easy to read and has a wealth of bearing-industry links specifically on this subject of "false brinelling" and other bearing-life links too.
Anyone who's over-engined a Vanagon should read this to simply raise your bearing-understanding of what you've done to your transaxle.

The lines on the gear and shaft are called "false brinelling".
It's general cause is from lack of sufficient lubrication of a stationary needle bearing.
That needle bearing is NOT spinning when you're in 4th.
But the needle rolls back and forth ever so slightly, vibrationally, under high loads, high heat, and the oil film is driven out, rolled away left/right from the contact point.
And the needle then rests on the shaft metal-to-metal, for a long period of time if you're remaining in 4th gear for a long time.
Heat makes oil thinner, and exacerbates the problem.

False Brinelling factors:

Heat
compromised oil
Improper break-in of new parts
loose 'fit' of the 4th gear idler possibly due to undersized (worn?) mainshaft
Time and centrifugal force throwing the oil outward
vibration (and other factors, possibly resonance)

That brown oil looks like water.
Rust comes to mind but I can't imagine how that happened so quickly.
Water is a terrible problem, and i can't imagine how you got that much in there, other than Condensation.
But it doesn't take much to lose significant film strength.
Zoom thru this article: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1379/contaminating-oil
There's dripping it on a hot pan and see if it "crackles" as the water boils out.
You'd put a frying pan in the oven at 325°, then take it out and drip a little oil onto it (perhaps on the bottom, not the food surface.) and see if the oil crackles. 325° shouldn't boil the oil but the water pops.
But that brown oil is long gone, right?

I would use GL5, and just learn how to shift it slower.
Shift more "RV-like" than sports-car-like.
GL4 will shift nicer.....but....you have a big engine and over-loaded gears.
Need the lube with the higher film strength for its other benefits.
GL4 is a formulation that was superseded 40 years ago, and specified for the 90HP WBX.
Other than that, i wouldn't place much faith in oil brand, type etc causing __or preventing__ problems with over-loaded steel.
The oil differences are subtle, only few percent even possible, if your 'brand' actually provides an increase... but the steel remains much further undersized.

Emulsified water however is BIG percent!
Heat too, and contamination, but it sounds like you were addressing contamination.

I have my doubts it was heat.
I didn't see evidence of heat on the pics but all I have is "pics".
The water 'appearance' bugs me as being the big hitter.
But I can't imagine how you got that much condensation, nobody else does.
Yet the oil is cloudy brown.
Puzzling!

[dsdunbar]

[dsdunbar]

[Sodo]

Sorry that is such an eyefull but I’m not a good editor.

I think lugging is generally in the low 2000s.
I hesitate to write an RPM number.
Like any time its below 2500, and if you press more throttle, and it’s unable to accelerate (can’t go faster) — that could be a candidate for lugging.

Lugging is not when coasting in your neighborhood.
It’s when trying to accelerate or hold speed against an incline, at low RPM.
It’s making the engine ’work’ at lower RPMs.

[erste]

[dsdunbar]

[dsdunbar]

Got my van back, everything appears to be running great (trans and vanaru).

SODO -
I was driving my van back home from picking it up, and was really restraining myself to stay under 70mph (speed limit was 70 mph on I-81 and I-64).

But I struggle with your suggestion to switch between 3rd gear and 4th gear excessively.

55mph 3rd gear is around 4000 rpms. It will be hard to put 5k miles on the transmission and be switching between 3rd and 4th excessively when ....60 mph would be about as fast as I would want the van moving when in 3rd gear (think this is around 5k rpm but I am sure someone has the rpm chart for stock R&P and gears (1-3) for a late model 2wd transmission).

I am not sure I am going to have the ability to hit anywhere close to that high level of mileage to be shifting between 3rd and 4th to try and imprint the rollers around the 4th gear (cant recall the term you used).

Did you do this when you rebuilt your trans (not sure if you replaced gears)?
_________________
'89 2WD Westy "Grey Goose" - Manual 4spd
Crozet VA
Vanaru EJ25, Peloquin

[Sodo]

Dana I hear you.

We can do this in the west because we can get off the 70-80 MPH freeways, and put down lots of miles, in a lovely way, at 55-60mph.

Not a lot is known about the brinelling here but one thing known is, each time you shift you choose a different position for the (stationary) needle bearing on the shaft. And it perhaps re-lubricates too (hopefully).
Overloaded shafts are especially vulnerable to brinelling when new, before the peaks/valleys get smoothed over and work-hardenend. Or 'burnished'.

We have been calling this "false brinell".
Samba member GTgears calls it "false-false brinell" which is apt, as its logically 'true brinnell'. You can't catch a fingernail on false brinell. You can on true brinell, and your shaft had fingernail-catching lines.

The last time your shafts were new they were only subjected to 90 HP and they burnished gently over time, became nice and round and smooth. And the WBX must use 3rd gear often so it was shifted.

Now they have to break in under 165 HP, far far beyond their design capacity. The contact psi on the shaft surface under the needle bearing is much higher. It's not turning, it's stationary in one spot except for the gear teeth vibration. This high-frequency very short-ampltude left/right movement wiggles the oil out from under the needleand you have metal-to-metal contact. At high frequency, millions of tiny vibrational movements add up to "distance" with no lubrication. And under the high loads of over-engining, compression too (brinelling).

You want to move it often and keep doing so until you've burnished all the way around that new shaft and the needles have no saddles "to get stuck in".

Choosing 55-60mph roads also limits the power applied, in hopes it is nearer to the OEM 90HP.
Go easy on the weight, and thee wind-sail, and the duty-cycle.
Sorry I think you just have to do this for 5,000 miles.
Maybe it's 10,000.
Who could know how to bed in a shaft that is loaded far beyond engineering design limits?
The gearbox design engineer is the only one who knows and he wouldn't tell you how to do it,
he'd say that you just can't do it at all.

We only get little glimpses when a builder is willing to take new stuff apart and is secure in his reputation enough to post pics.
I cannot imagine with a 6-week backlog, he has time to painstakingly investigate this problem, but he did, and kudos for that.

If Steedle were to say "no more warranties for conversion engines" that is within his rights, totally logical and any engineer would/should back him up.
I know you're an engineer.
And that you do stand behind him.

I don't have any experience or success with this, all I have is an intense interest, anecdotal stories/pics such as yours, and I talk to people who study this stuff of over-engining and the engineering point-of-view, and are very interested.

I have all new shafts and all new gears too and am in a position to test my own advice, but i don't want to take it apart and check up on it. So I can't provide the full circle.
I'm not an OEM.
I truly enjoy researching other's problems, and what I will do is choose the best course of action in hopes I won't have to open mine and look.

Sorry for that and thank you at the same time.

This over-engining thing that rejects engineering in favor of performance can be summarized as "the cows coming home".
We all did it, and we all knew it was a risk, and we are trying to mitigate that by understanding it better, adjusting our ways.
Some of us are trying some things.
Nobody is reducing HP, in fact they are increasing HP.
This is like kids running the show, isn't it?

I can't promise any results. But some things will help for sure.
Better lubrication by cleanliness is one certain factor.
Reduced duty-cycle is another.
Part quality is another (difficult for both builder and consumers to implement).

Good luck and thank you very much for reporting, your efforts have advanced the understanding.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[ALIKA T3]

Matt Steedle is da man

Thank you for documenting your experience in an objective way for the community.

If I may, which bearing carrier did end up being installed in the end?
I see 2 versions here on your thread, the aluminum SA version for which I sell the retainer plate for the mainshaft ball bearing

And the regular version, which looks like to be aluminum too here:

_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget

[dsdunbar]

[dsdunbar]

Hey SODO,
Yea Matt's a standup guy. As for this repair Matt was awesome and split it with me even though it was deemed user error. Matt didnt charge me any labor and provided me all his parts at cost (so he didnt make any money on this work and thus by extension he probably lost money for time is money, right?). I was very thankful of Matt doing this for me.

The more I read your responses Sodo the more it makes me question why i didnt opt to go w/ a Subaru Gears trans instead of the Vanagon trans. My thinking is, if the power is causing so much of a headach for the vanagon trans why not use the trans that was developed for the engine? Originally I didnt opt for this because of the cost (And Steedle shared some stories with me about his experience with the subaru trans and it seemed like it wasnt the right choice. But after this repair, I am just about at the cost for the subaru trans and would have gained 5th gear.

So I dont know, if someone were to ask me on the street what trans would I recommend (Subaru gears or Vanagon), I am not sure what my answer would be.

As always, appreciate your insight and thoughts.

-Dana

[Sodo]

I honestly wish I knew if the Subaru was the way to go.
It sure SEEMS like the thing to do.

Maybe not for a syncro for my usage.
You 'd have to pry that granny from my cold, dead fingers.
There's no way to add a compound shaft to a Subaru AWD trans.

One guy I talked to said he can't tell by looking why a Subaru trans should be any stronger, other than the few solvable vanagon problems.
The cases look very lightweight in comparison.
For whatever that's worth.
I have never seen inside a Subaru trans.
The shaft-to-shaft distance is an interesting metric that relates somewhat to power capacity.
Does anyone know the distance for the Subaru 5mt?
VW shaft distance is about 102mm.

The one thing he postulates, is the Subaru trans are all 'young' and the Vanagon trans are all 'old'.
(and IMHO, both are "unmaintained" with the VWs being old plus unmaintained).

We have to "wait" for the Subaru trans to prove themselves and become numerous enough to judge them.
But just by logic, it seems like a trans from a 6-cyl should be good for a vanagon.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb