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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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 Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:25 pm Post subject: Too much patina? |
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Due to a financial change out of my control, Ruby will not be painted, however, I couldn't stand the burnt orange oxide paint, here she is after 1000 grit hand sanding and ruing compound.
Apparently before Dad bought her, the right front fender was replaced. Plus, the "restoration" shop which did the rubbish respray apparently first painted her neon orange.   This are now starting to bother me, especially the bright blue.
What about painting the rusted metal spots?
What about painting over the blue?
Thanks in advance. 
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Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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That left rear fender must of had termites.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| That left rear fender must of had termites. |
Assuming this is humor, I find this funny.
The paint on the fender was severely flaking and patches of rust, plus the bead lip has some rust. Pulled it thinking I had bought the paint when I bought the white, nope. So, until the paint comes, fender is propped up so doesn't get damaged.
By the way, I feel fortunate that despite the numerous abuses other drivers gave her (Dad always parked far away to avoid what he called, modifying an aviation term, parking lot rash), that only one fender was replaced and now will need to be replaced because it is Mexican rubbish (I placed my hand on top to help myself up and put a dent in, which I just pushed back out). So far no fenders in Arizona, seems early Beetles are very rare out here, and for some reason sellers don't seem willing to ship (though at that time I was looking for three or four). Heck, even in Sandy Eggo I only saw one on the road, when I grew up out there, they were all over.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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It's not too much IMO. It would be better if it was original paint that never got painted over but it doesnt look bad. My car has a similar "patina." It was repainted once on only the outside and is weathered, showing the original paint in spots. My interior paint is original and has real nice age and character, that is part of why I don't want to repaint the car overall. There are ways to kind of tie everything together. You could clear coat with a semi gloss or satin or even just leave as is, buff out a little, and wax.
I like it when a car tells a story, and shows its age... Too an extent.
You could go to sherwin Williams or a similar paint store and have them match you a gallon of laquer (the kind for furniture, lol) to the ashtray or something. Laquer has very hot solvents which will sort of melt into old paint. If you practice and know what you are doing the results can be very good. It's hard to explain in detail but basically it's possible to blend things in and hide what you want to hide, but it's also very easy to make it worse if you dont know what you are doing.
You can also use enamel or urethane but it's harder to get that to blend as well as regular laquer. Laquer does have its durability downfalls but you'd actually be surprised how long it stays looking good... years....
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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| evanfrucht wrote: |
It's not too much IMO. It would be better if it was original paint that never got painted over but it doesnt look bad. My car has a similar "patina." It was repainted once on only the outside and is weathered, showing the original paint in spots. My interior paint is original and has real nice age and character, that is part of why I don't want to repaint the car overall. There are ways to kind of tie everything together. You could clear coat with a semi gloss or satin or even just leave as is, buff out a little, and wax.
I like it when a car tells a story, and shows its age... Too an extent.
You could go to sherwin Williams or a similar paint store and have them match you a gallon of laquer (the kind for furniture, lol) to the ashtray or something. Laquer has very hot solvents which will sort of melt into old paint. If you practice and know what you are doing the results can be very good. It's hard to explain in detail but basically it's possible to blend things in and hide what you want to hide, but it's also very easy to make it worse if you dont know what you are doing.
You can also use enamel or urethane but it's harder to get that to blend as well as regular laquer. Laquer does have its durability downfalls but you'd actually be surprised how long it stays looking good... years.... |
Appreciate the help.
So what would one do about the significant amount of rust, especially since German fenders are super rare and horrendously expensive?
I actually have used automotive lacquer before as the shop in California and also here only mix those for cans. I have never have had problems, guess I got lucky?
I was considering Rust-Oleum rattle cans, however, now thanks to this information, I am glad held off and now see it be worth the extra cost to burn it in?
Original Volkswagen lacquer and some Chevrolet lacquer at least can be buffed, I bet if Dad didn't have an unpleasant wife who was too lazy to raise children, he have time to regularly wash and wax Ruby as had done and the paint would still be shinny or only need a buff. Oma's Chevrolet was never washed or waxed (Opa said vehicles are tools and don't need it...) and simply washing the Chevrolet, the paint is beautiful. So what changed?
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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I don't see much rust in the pics at least. The drivers fender looks like surface rust which could be clear coated over to preserve it. You dont even need to prep it really, since you want that to show through, paint sticks well to surface rust as long as you get all the loose stuff off. I might use a nylon brush on the rust and wash down the whole fender with soapy water and then immediately dry it, then do your pre pain wipe and clearcoat. You might be able to get away with just wax but it wont preserve it quite the same
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )
Last edited by evanfrucht on Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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| evanfrucht wrote: |
| I don't see much rust in the pics at least. The drivers fender looks like surface rust which could be clear coated over to preserve it. You dont even need to prep it really, since you want that to show through, paint sticks well to surface rust as long as you get all the loose stuff off. I might use a nylon brush on the rust and wash down the whole fender with soapy water and then immediately dry it, then do your pre pain wipe and clearcoat. You might be able to get away with just wacky but it wont preserve it quite the same |
Back fender the lip is badly rusted and one place missing steel. The rear has no pitting, the front is heavily pitted.
My concern with clear coating the rear fender is that it was not properly prepared and the respray is coming off in large chunks.
I am truly diagnosed with OCD, get annoyed when people make a joke of it. So, since that leaves the front driver the only rusty fender, it bothers me. What about skipping the color and the clear on that fender to give more time to mull it over?
By the way, the rust on the front fender has had one good coating of EvapoRust gel and a wash.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22402
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| That left rear fender must of had termites. |
Here in Michigan we call them "Iron moths". But I do like "termites". 
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Adriel Rowley
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Joined: October 12, 2006
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Location: Mesa, Arizona
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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You can weld in a patch. You could skip the clearcoat. Just touch up the color where you want. I would not be worried about the clearcoat or paint coming off in chunks. Good preparation is key. Use the extra or ultrafine scotch bright pads (maroon or light grey in color) or 1000 grit wet sanding paper on a soft foam block ( if you wet sand make sure to use water with a tiny bit of dish soap in it and also make sure you never let the wet sanding residue dry, it must remain moist until washed off, if you let the sanding sludge dry it becomes basically impossible to remove without more sanding.) Then clean everything very well. I like to use a product called Prep-All as my final wipe.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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| evanfrucht wrote: |
| You can weld in a patch. You could skip the clearcoat. Just touch up the color where you want. I would not be worried about the clearcoat or paint coming off in chunks. Good preparation is key. Use the extra or ultrafine scotch bright pads (maroon or light grey in color) or 1000 grit wet sanding paper on a soft foam block ( if you wet sand make sure to use water with a tiny bit of dish soap in it and also make sure you never let the wet sanding residue dry, it must remain moist until washed off, if you let the sanding sludge dry it becomes basically impossible to remove without more sanding.) Then clean everything very well. I like to use a product called Prep-All as my final wipe. |
Evan, again thank you for your help, appreciated.
So am I understanding correctly despite the respray flaking off due to lack of preparation, painting over this flaking paint will not be an issue?
How does this work? I thought if a layer has failed it must come off.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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Yes if you are doing a full and proper restoration with a repaint you would want to bring everything down to bare metal. Sometimes if you havea really solid layer of paint you can work off of it, and avoid stripping everything completely.
In this case you will need to accept some sort of compromise
As far as the paint flaking off, I'm not sure how bad it is without seeing it up close... BUT, whatever remains after being scotch brited should be solid enough to paint over.
That being said you may have some severe paint adhesion issues on the previous coat(s).... if that is the case then it will all come off anyway when you use the fine abrasives to prep it. Basically whatever remains after a light sanding should be paintable. Will it be perfect or last forever, no.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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| evanfrucht wrote: |
Yes if you are doing a full and proper restoration with a repaint you would want to bring everything down to bare metal. Sometimes if you havea really solid layer of paint you can work off of it, and avoid stripping everything completely.
In this case you will need to accept some sort of compromise
As far as the paint flaking off, I'm not sure how bad it is without seeing it up close... BUT, whatever remains after being scotch brited should be solid enough to paint over.
That being said you may have some severe paint adhesion issues on the previous coat(s).... if that is the case then it will all come off anyway when you use the fine abrasives to prep it. Basically whatever remains after a light sanding should be paintable. Will it be perfect or last forever, no. |
Fantastic help! Appreciated!
It's bad, the whole fender and includes the primer, many places it shows bare metal and rust.
I used a brand new single edge razor as was clogging up my 180 grit paper. I cut back to a chamfered edge, then sanded with 180 again. Will of course acquire 400 and sand to that level.
As to my expectations, it is simply to keep the coachwork preserved. I don't expect the patina to be even, though at this point seems my preference. If it lasts a couple years, that be amazing.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Too much patina? |
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Be careful using 180. I'd wait until you have 400 to do more. I might even start with 500 or 600.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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