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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:06 am Post subject: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Shameless re post but with new subject title.
Hi folks.
On the 1.6 NA, do the bends in the passenger side exhaust bracket between engine and muffler strengthen the bracket? Or, are they there only to accommodate the position of bracket on the muffler?
I just noticed that detail after making and fitting this part. I could add a brace of some kind I guess. Maybe a length of flat steel on edge?
I made the bracket out of ~ 1/8" mild steel plate. This is for a 1.9 WBX muffler on an ABA engine but I bet someone else has had to make this part for the diesel.
Neil.
Shows bends I refer to
Not so easy to see in this etka or etka type image
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:33 am Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Neil, I recently welded up a friend's AAZ w/JX broken muffler assembly and reviewing the pics he sent me prior to my work, I'd say those brackets are angled for fitment, and not for strengthening. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Ok, thanks a lot for that Casey. Now that you mention different diesel engine block codes, maybe that 1.6 NA diesel muffler is made to fit other diesel Vanagon engines. Maye ones with wider oil pans? e.g. TD's built for the EU markets. But then maybe a TD uses a different muffler. One with larger passages? Anyhow....
The bracket I've made is probably wider overall than OE but then at 1/8" thick, it may be thinner than OE.
"Sweat'n the small stuff".....
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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82westyrabbit Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015 Posts: 969 Location: Ma
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Hi Neil
I measured the bracket you were talking about and it is in fact just a shade over an 1/8th of an inch. the bends in the bracket are just for making it fit.
when ever I tried to use the stock diesel brackets the rubber muffler mounts would break shortly after I installed new ones.
after changing all the rubber exhaust hangers two or three times I gave up.
then I hung the muffler of these home made brackets. they sure are ugly but I think they were on the van for about 100,000 miles. now my exhaust is hanging of the body on FAS exhaust hanger kit. I don't like any of the options I've used so far. certainly the FAS kit is better then anything else I've tried on my own.
good luck
John |
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Gnarlodious Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2013 Posts: 2323 Location: Adobe Jungle USA
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Only for fit. I’ve had to weld mine up a few times after side-to-side engine motion broke that piece. _________________ Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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82westyrabbit wrote: |
.....
after changing all the rubber exhaust hangers two or three times I gave up.
then I hung the muffler of these home made brackets. they sure are ugly but I think they were on the van for about 100,000 miles. now my exhaust is hanging of the body on FAS exhaust hanger kit. I don't like any of the options I've used so far. certainly the FAS kit is better then anything else I've tried on my own.
good luck
John |
Thanks a bunch for the images and information John. Ya, I may regret designing this exhaust around the diesel parts but we'll see.
Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
I'd say those brackets are angled for fitment, and not for strengthening. |
82westyrabbit wrote: |
Hi Neil
I measured the bracket you were talking about and it is in fact just a shade over an 1/8th of an inch. the bends in the bracket are just for making it fit. |
Gnarlodious wrote: |
Only for fit. |
Ok. Sounds like you folks have nailed this one down. Thanks!
Gnarlodious wrote: |
I’ve had to weld mine up a few times after side-to-side engine motion broke that piece. |
Although a hypothetical, maybe its better that the bracket is the sacrificial part vs the oil pan. i.e were the bracket stronger, would that vibration run the risk of cracking the pan where it mounts?
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Tbob Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2007 Posts: 417 Location: Pensacola, Fl.
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:13 am Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Neil, before I built my exhaust for mine, I read about all the problems everyone was having with both diesels and conversion exhaust systems based on the diesel design. It seems to be a poor design. I decided that since the rubber engine mounts allow the engine to move on a longitudinal axis with the body/frame, that if the exhaust could be extended on that axis to allow it to flex over a longer length, that it would hopefully last. Since my Audi 2 exit exhaust manifold faced forward, I had the exhaust shop run the exhaust forward to the center of the van, do a u turn to the muffler, and exit out the rear under the driver's side taillite. I had them put one braided flex coupling just past the collector, and with 30,000 miles, no problems. The only downside to my system is that it runs near the drivers side inner CV joint, so I had to make a heat shield and heat tape the exhaust there.
I know your is almost built, but keep this in mind if yours causes trouble. _________________ 1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Tbob wrote: |
Neil, before I built my exhaust for mine, I read about all the problems everyone was having with both diesels and conversion exhaust systems based on the diesel design. It seems to be a poor design. I decided that since the rubber engine mounts allow the engine to move on a longitudinal axis with the body/frame, that if the exhaust could be extended on that axis to allow it to flex over a longer length, that it would hopefully last. Since my Audi 2 exit exhaust manifold faced forward, I had the exhaust shop run the exhaust forward to the center of the van, do a u turn to the muffler, and exit out the rear under the driver's side taillite. I had them put one braided flex coupling just past the collector, and with 30,000 miles, no problems. The only downside to my system is that it runs near the drivers side inner CV joint, so I had to make a heat shield and heat tape the exhaust there.
I know your is almost built, but keep this in mind if yours causes trouble. |
Thanks Tbob.
I've seen the manifold you write of and have seen glimpses of a similar exhaust to what you describe. Maybe yours is similar to the South African style exhaust system?
Although the trend seems to be to hang a shortish run of exhaust from the body, and it sounds like your system also hangs from the body, I know of a few diesel exhaust type designs that have attained high miles w/o any real issues (cracks). I'm doing my best to reduce weight, keep primary pipe length short and with luck, the "toilet bowl" and a braided expansion joint should help quell vibration and allow for heat/cooling effects. ..... but what's "luck got to do with it?" LOL. The real wild card is the weight and location (though the latter is kind of moot I think) of the cat. That part is a design game changer IMO.
On my 15º ABA daily driver I've had good luck with the Bosal rubber - metal bonded isolators; they've been wearing quite well. It occurs to me that Johns' example wear at that part might be exacerbated by salted roads? Anyhow....
I'll post some pics of the arm et al once I'm done.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Tbob Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2007 Posts: 417 Location: Pensacola, Fl.
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Neil, my exhaust does hang from the body on generic fabric and rubber straps procured at the local flaps. I also have one braided flex coupling as you describe. I have had no issues, other than what was caused by inept muffler shop(Loud "tuner" style muffler, exhaust pipe clearance issues. Once I cured those myself, like 10 years ago, it has been sterling. Still, good luck with your system. You have put a lot of thought into what you are doing, hope it works well for you! _________________ 1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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^^
thanks Tbob!
As promised (well, it's not really done yet...
The arrow points to a spot that I need to double check. Make sure that end isn't pushing up against the pan.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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82westyrabbit Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015 Posts: 969 Location: Ma
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Hi Neil. The last part van I bought had the exsust hangers just like yours. Instead of a clamp he ran springs around the muffler. It just gives a little more flexibility to the system. Just a thought. John |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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So just to report back.
The Bosal rubber-metal-rubber mount at the passenger side arm has failed. Don't know at what mileage this happened but the exhaust has less than 30K miles. It failed early IMO.
Looking again at images of my bracket, maybe bracket length ("WBX" 1.9 muffler has larger OD than diesel muffler?) and high angle off oil pan are factors. Tail pipe is pretty long too.
Or, maybe those mounts just don't last that long.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9937 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1647 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:32 am Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
So just to report back.
The Bosal rubber-metal-rubber mount at the passenger side arm has failed. Don't know at what mileage this happened but the exhaust has less than 30K miles. It failed early IMO.
Looking again at images of my bracket, maybe bracket length ("WBX" 1.9 muffler has larger OD than diesel muffler?) and high angle off oil pan are factors. Tail pipe is pretty long too.
Or, maybe those mounts just don't last that long.
Neil. |
They tend to fail quick.
Usually lasted a few years on my original JX system.
Later I changed the whole exhaust system to the latest bigger muffler (after '89, screw-on type) setup - it needs a different L bracket on the original bracket. The rubbers are still good, but dont know which brand I have used last time. Probably JPGroup. _________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:53 am Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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I recently added a second isolator on the right side that helps reduce the twisting force on that single right side isolator. I did similar to the left side which has the second isolator on the top at an angle. The two additional brackets that I made to add the additional isolator bolt onto the existing parts.
The additional isolator cannot be seen in the pic, but its position can be surmised running fore-aft at an angle up toward the rear. |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:49 am Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Mark: very cool. Thanks. Would not have known about that upgraded isolator.
ZsZ: helpful to know what you saw for average life span of that isolator. i.e. early failure of that part may not be due to my fabrication or design "copy" of the DV exhaust.
?Waldo?: I made a similar part on my 15º ABA but with a steeper angle and more complex. 10's of thousands of miles later, a part of that bracket failed at a design flaw point. Having muffler mount points closer to center of the longer heavier 2.1 WBX muffler, didn't help either. Thanks for that pic.
On this 50º ABA in question with 1.9 WBX muffler, I'm hoping that the isolators at OE diesel Vanagon driver side brackets, are ok.
Bosal isolators had increased in price but Rockauto.com price seems better now:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volkswagen,198...acket,5804
Though untested, I repaired a Bosal isolator with construction adhesive.
For now, I'll live with the isolator as the sacrificial part. So far, no other parts of the exhaust I made are cracking or worse.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
.... the exhaust has less than 30K miles. It failed early IMO.
Or, maybe those mounts just don't last that long. |
I drive on dirt roads sometimes. Kind of obvious to say but vibrations due to pot holes, washboard, might be a factor. IOW, having an added isolator on the horizontal plane at passenger side bracket may help offset this.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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I didn't mention in my prior post but an additional advantage to the added brackets and isolator on the passenger side is that now even if both of the isolators fail on that side the exhaust will not hang down. It might make a bit more noise, but the brackets will catch it from falling. |
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82westyrabbit Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015 Posts: 969 Location: Ma
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Hi Neil. I got tired of playing with the hanging the exsust off the engine game. I bought the FAS kit that hangs the muffler off the body. It has been on there 15000 miles at this point and I don’t see it failing anytime soon. It would be easy to fabricate something similar if you go that route. Just a thought. John |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:52 am Post subject: Re: 1.6 NA Diesel Passenger Side Exhaust Bracket Design. |
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Hey John.
Thanks for your reports on OE, DIY and FAS exhaust design experiences.
Does the FAS exhaust system add or reduce interior noise VS the OE exhaust design as used on the VW gas inline 4?
It appears ?Waldo? 4th isolator brackets can be added with minimal work to parts currently on the van. Very clever! Since my 50º ABA Vanagon using the 1.6 NA type exhaust bracket is my daily driver, I'll look into adding brackets, isolator, to that bracket.
Some years ago, spurred on by ?Waldo? suggestion or idea of 4th isolator, I made driver side DV type brackets for passenger side end of exhaust on the 15º ABA in my other Vanagon. Eventually, the upper arm failed. Undersized gussets, heavier 2.1 WBX muffler with at least 1/2 hanging out unsupported, were likely big factors behind the failure. If room allows, I'll properly gusset the new "top" ~ 45º plate to new vertical plate.
Neil.
On currently idle 15º ABA Vanagon. New brackets attached to old which in turn mounts to ABA accessory bracket.
view from opposite ends
underside of failed part of arm off upper isolator. Early work!
view from above where arm broke free
Looking at this design, work, makes me cringe now. The cat was moved to a different spot. Regardless, even now with 2 supports to muffler (not as shown), I'd never install a 2.1 size muffler again; it's too heavy, too long.
view of failed bracket, exhaust still mounted. Isolator did not fail IIRC
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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