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Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually)
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nmerrill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

Well, from personal experience, "seam" rust is NOT just seam rust.
My van had slight discoloration and light bubbles in a few places - it was far worse than I realized once I started poking around with a screw driver...
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

I recall someone writing in about dealing with seam rust - they recommended a small etching/blasting device - they said it was nice for getting into the crevices. It can be a bit more precise - for the small fine stuff...

https://www.harborfreight.com/air-eraseretching-kit-69277.html

I've not tried this yet, but seems like a good idea.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

After I "picked" my seams I trickled OSPHO down the seam starting from the top.
It's like water and going to creep into the finest spaces between the panels to put a coating of phosphate on the metal to protect it. Then after drying and brushing away any white dusty residue I seal it.
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VanMan2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

nmerrill wrote:
Well, from personal experience, "seam" rust is NOT just seam rust.
My van had slight discoloration and light bubbles in a few places - it was far worse than I realized once I started poking around with a screw driver...


I definitely agree with this! One common theme in all of the various rust threads is "it's always worse than it looks." One good reason for not waiting to deal with your seam rust:
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I have a couple pea-sized holes and a few more pin-head sized ones where the rust ate through. Maybe if I had done this a couple of years ago I could have saved a bunch of additional work. On that topic - anyone have ideas on how to patch these little holes? The seams are in pretty good shape other than this spot so I don't think it needs to be structural.

In spite of all the new rusty areas I found, I managed to make a good amount of progress over the weekend. I found some coal slag (aka black beauty) at Tractor Supply and I'm glad I went this route (thanks for the recommendation earlier in the thread). The coal slag cut through the rust much better than anything else I've tried. I also found that the 'fine' grade did a lot better in my Harbor Freight blaster, and still had great cutting power compared to the medium I also tried. The medium constantly jammed.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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The coal does a good job of taking away the rust and leaving a nice surface, without taking too much metal.

This was a bummer to see:
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PO must have had a dent repaired to the passenger rear fender.. I see the telltale 'tab' things used in dent pullers. I'm thinking that repair opened up the seams, or they were sealed back properly because there's rust in there. That's pretty much been the theme of this project so far, but I struggle forward nonetheless.

Here's what the seam currently looks like after a round of fine grade coal slag:

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A lot better, but this seam's lived a hard life. This is the one other place where I've found a pea-sized hole. This is the view sitting on top of the passenger rear tire, looking forward:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I need to figure out what to do with these little holes.

A few things I've learned / figured out along the way:

The Harbor Freight 20lb sand blaster nozzles suck for anything other than baking soda. The nozzles that come with it are far too small, even the 1/8th. They also conveniently don't sell larger nozzles. The first couple of days blasting were really frustrating as the nozzle would constantly clog.

I ended up buying a 3/8 to 1/4 reducer I found in the air tools accessory section and then screwing a 1/4 'barb' (from a hose repair kit) to make my nozzle. This worked well with the coal slag's bigger pieces.

Alright, time to research patch options. On a personal level, every time I close my eyes I see rust. bubbling rust. scaly rust. rust rust rust.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:57 am    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

I don't have experience with it - but I do recall that POR-15 had a product that would probably be good for those small holes.

There is Por Patch and POR putty. I think there products are good quality, so I would think this stuff is good for those small holes. Then again - 3M probably makes a good product too - I just don't know all their products.
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Steve M.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

Do your "search" research on what people have used and the opinions of the products.
One thing is to not leave it sit as bare metal.
As soon I get an area blasted and clean up the blasting dust I put a cost of OSPHO on the metal. This will give me time to ponder about the best way to fix the damage uncovered by the blasting.

Some good info to be found here on these links.
Rust converters:

best info review: Really explains how they work.
https://www.vehiclescene.com/best-rust-converter/

wiki reviews:
https://chemicalwiki.com/best-rust-converter/

Incidently, OSPHO is not mentioned in any of these reviews!

Takes you to Amazon everytime you click a link to the product, but has a lot of different products. Just good to see the many products available, but they probably make money everytime you click a link. Read the Amazon reviews- half the reviewers do not have any experience or first time users and don't know what they're talking about. There are good knowledgeable reviews by people who are not being paid to review the product.
https://www.carrollshelby.com/best-rust-converter/

good faq on one product:
https://www.theruststore.com/Rust-Converter-FAQs-W48.aspx

Beware the thick creamy products. They do not "flow" like water and water is what has caused rust problems. You want a product that flows so it gets in where the water has gotten because do you really think you have gotten all the rust out? You did not.
Inbetween the separate panels spot welded together water has gotten in those seams where sand blasting cannot get into. You can blast the edges of the seams, but under the edges is where the rust hides.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

Steve M. wrote:
Incidently, OSPHO is not mentioned in any of these reviews!

Takes you to Amazon everytime you click a link to the product, but has a lot of different products. Just good to see the many products available, but they probably make money everytime you click a link. Read the Amazon reviews- half the reviewers do not have any experience or first time users and don't know what they're talking about. There are good knowledgeable reviews by people who are not being paid to review the product.
https://www.carrollshelby.com/best-rust-converter/


I can't take anyone seriously that calls POR15 a rust converter. The name is literally paint over rust, not paint that will convert rust. It does a good job of sealing rusty surfaces, but it's not a "rust converter."

And how can they ignore a 3M product? 3M Mar-Hyde > all. Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

4Gears4Tires wrote:

I can't take anyone seriously that calls POR15 a rust converter. The name is literally paint over rust, not paint that will convert rust. It does a good job of sealing rusty surfaces, but it's not a "rust converter."

And how can they ignore a 3M product? 3M Mar-Hyde > all. Laughing


My gut feeling about "reviews" that link you to buying the product is more interested in making money off me!
That's why I like Amazon reviewers and the Online Tire Store reviewers...you hear the other side of the glowing review! You see things the mfg. never mentions.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

My experience with POR15 and similar products is that they are good if you're encapsulating the entire surface like doing a whole frame...but if you're doing anything where there will be an edge, then it's eventually going to peel off - especially if you're not putting it directly over rust, but on a surface you've prepped. I won't be using it on a car again personally.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

do NOT use POR-15.

it's 100000% garbage these days. i use to swear by it. they changed something about it and it's horrible.

use Masterseries. the stuff is epic

http://masterseriesct.com/
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VanMan2009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

Alright, so I spent some time last night reading more about rust converters and encapsulators, and found this article pretty helpful (from the Eastwood site):

https://garage.eastwood.com/eastwood-chatter/encapsulator-vs-converter/

It covers when to use a rust encapsulator (like POR15) vs a converter. Some select quotes:
Quote:
"4. Mixed surfaces – Rust Encapsulator is the best rust product to apply over surfaces that might vary in grades of rust, have bare metal or old paint present. If you have an area that you cleaned to bare metal or repaired and there’s still rust around that area, I’d suggest Rust Encapsulator."


Quote:
Rust converter needs 100 percent rust present in order for it to work correctly and to fully cure. The surface also needs to be top coated after it is cured. For the best protection, we suggest applying rust encapsulator over the converter and then applying the top coat.


What I'm getting from this is to use both. First, phosphoric acid (aka Oshpo), then something like Eastwood's rust encapsulator: https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-black-rust-encapsulator-paint-over-rust.html

They say you can top coat right over it. As of now, my plan is:
1. sand blast (done)
2. Phosphoric acid / Ospho, wicked into the seams.
3. Eastwood Rust Encapsulator over the interior seams.
4. Eastwood 2-part epoxy based primer

I don't think I'm going to top coat / paint the interior seams beyond primer.

I found a couple of interesting Youtube videos comparing the different products after 2 years of exposure. Cliffnotes- they all seem to work pretty well.

Rust battle round 1

Link


Rust battle round 2

Link
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VanMan2009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

Quote:
My experience with POR15 and similar products is that they are good if you're encapsulating the entire surface like doing a whole frame...but if you're doing anything where there will be an edge, then it's eventually going to peel off - especially if you're not putting it directly over rust, but on a surface you've prepped. I won't be using it on a car again personally.


I've heard this from more than 1 place - POR15 can/will peel if applied to clean or painted metal. It seems to only really bond to rust.

Quote:
do NOT use POR-15.

it's 100000% garbage these days. i use to swear by it. they changed something about it and it's horrible.

use Masterseries. the stuff is epic

http://masterseriesct.com/


Thanks for the recommendation - I hadn't heard of Masterseries. Any experience with how it compares to Eastwood? I've been leaning toward their products.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hoping I didn't mess up....I've been reading many forums and paint blogs to the point I was terrified of using acids - there's lots of paint pros that refuse to use the stuff, as it can create huge paint adhesion problems down the line if not used correctly. Well, I used phosphoric acid anyway thinking there was enough rust left I couldn't get to and I wanted peace of mind.

This picture was the result of following these steps:

1. DA'd (actually it was a random orbital) 80 grit everywhere I'm going to paint (kitchen floor mainly). Sanded to bare metal where there was surface rust on the floor.
2. Phosphoric acid (aka Ospho) with an acid brush into the seams, and on the rust pitting that the sander couldn't get to the bottom of.
3. Let sit overnight. In the morning, I applied more acid to re-wet. scrubbed with a scrub brush, rinsed. scrubbed again, rinsed. wiped with clean cloth.
5. I then 'steamed' the treated areas using a hand held clothing steamer. (this was a recommendation here to further neutralize the Ospho). Wiped down again.
6. Let try overnight, woke up to the above.

To test, I hit this area with the 80 grit again and it's mostly bare metal, but I can see tiny tiny traces of the gold color still there. Is that rust? Or is that the Ospho coating, and is it ok?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Can I sand @80 grit, and then prime? Or does this gold stuff (rust?) need to be totally gone?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

van man read your comments on another post. that looks like flash rust in the picture . exposed metal rusts almost immediately. the zinc phosphate will turn black I used the eastwood fast etchand rinsed it then used their pre product to clean the surface . as this area is all not seen why sand it anyway just recoat it with a primer and paint.

the poster that said that it is in the seam . agree but removing the rust and converting what you can reach will make it way better and delay replacing the entire panel . heck you can say that about most welds that if they are not done well that they rust from the inside . keeping moisture and air away from the metal will definitely slow the process down rather than just letting it go will result in bigger repairs.

definitely would look at sealing the hook ups on the panels so that no moisture is making its way into the cavity once closed up.

as to soda media great for paint removal and not disturbing the metal structure but not good for rust removal . I use crushed glass as it is cost effective and i had good results.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkm9cnsxoqs

good video on how rust products work and when and how to use.

The eastood internal frame paint is a requirement buses and westphalias for places you cant reach. as it converts t he rust and protects the surface
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VanMan2009
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

It's been a while since I've posted here, but rest assured progress (and rust) marches forward! The kitchen floor as well as rusty seams are all now in paint, and I'm almost ready to move onto the more fun parts of my project - upgraded fridge, new aux battery, lighting. etc etc ...but I'm getting ahead of myself!

The phosphoric acid (aka Ospho) ended up being a bigger pain than I anticipated. I suppose you could say that about every step of this project Laughing. After my first round of acid treatment + neutralization I had flash rust Mad After some research and great feedback here I modified my approach and I think ended up with acceptable results.

post phosphoric acid:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I re-wetted the areas I had previously ospho'd only this time I only let it sit for 5 minutes. I also diluted the acid mixture to about a 2 part water, 1 part acid ratio (ballpark), as too much acid will make the flash rusting worse. After 5 minutes I scrubbed with a scotchbrite pad, and then wiped with a clean rag. I repeated that process a few times, and then blew it all out with compressed air, and finished with a heat gun. All of this took about 30 minutes, and in that time I was fighting flash rust beginning even with all the above steps. In the end, it felt like I had to choose between completely neutralizing the acid, with lots of rinsing / wiping and dealing with some flash rust, or leave a little acid behind (no flash rust) but worrying about pain adhesion issues down the road.

Next up was covering the seams with Eastwood's 'Rust Encapsulator' product. Even though it brushes on, the fumes were intense and I was glad to have a good respirator. This part was pretty straight-forward: just make sure you have good coverage. Any remaining rust, locked safely away for eternity:
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This project is getting out of hand Very Happy
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Eastwood has a 2-part epoxy primer they sell in rattle cans. You push a button on the bottom of the can and the hardener is released into the can. Shake it up, and you're ready. It's really really important to know this stuff contains isocyanates which will kill you, your first-born son, and may even steal your wallet. I found 3M's 60923 organic cartridge filters to be best I could find.

I didn't take pictures, but after priming I filled the small pea-sized holes with epoxy, let it dry, and then brushed on 'brushable seam sealer' to fill in any remaining gaps. There's a certain skill to brushing it on and getting good aesthetic results that I didn't have haha. I went for coverage over beauty.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I had planned to top coat using rattle can paint mixed by NAPA, pretty sure it's just single stage something or other... It turned out NAPA doesn't mix pain on the weekends, so I headed to the only auto paint supply place I could find open on a Saturday. The guy really talked me out of my rattle can / single-stage approach, and so I left with a gallon of clear, hardener, reducer, and base coat mixed to the closest color I could match. Popped over to Harbor Freight and grabbed their cheap purple paint gun (~$25) and I now can open up my own restoration shop Laughing

I paint cars now.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Final paint results - base, and 3 coats of clear, and a little peak of what's coming next. I'm painting all of the dirty, aged, yellowed wallpaper with SEM vinyl 'color coat' and making custom curtains.
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I learned a ton about painting doing it this way, and I've already thought of 3-4 things I'd do differently, based on some imperfections and mistakes. It looks way better than I expected it to, and it's all going under the flooring so who cares really, but it was great for learning what to do / not do if you were going for a perfect finish. I'm actually thinking about painting the whole van myself now, I kind of enjoy body/paint work... the paint fumes must be going to my head haha.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

That looks awesome!
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

taht paint looks good. next acid job try using the pre paint product from eastwood that is what they recommend or if you dont have it use acetone to wipe it clean before the paint . Try to remove all acid so you dont have paint issues. With seam sealer I try to only brush once as it skins fast and will look horrible. when i do a seam i tape the borders and use gloved finger to spread. use the pre or acetone on the finger as a lube between the seam sealer and finger then spread in one direction and resist going over the area just done again skinning. looks like you are having some good results.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

Well this project has taken about 5x longer than I thought it would, but I managed to finish my interior restoration and get everything back together. Looking back, I'm glad I had no idea how much work was in store for me in the beginning Laughing

After finishing interior paint I moved on to the gross, stained wallpaper. I considered a few different options but in the end decided to paint it using SEM vinyl die/paint after seeing results from some other folks here. Taping of everything was quite a bit of work but less than the other options.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I didn't take a lot of pictures of this part but this gives the idea of what's involved. I used a small plastic door panel puller to get the tape behind the rubber window seal and the results came out really nice. I also pulled the headliner completely and painted it - that was a bigger pain in the ass than I anticipated!

After:
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Next up was adding some sound deadening & insulation
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The deadener was from Amazon- they have an 'essentials' product line that's similar to Fat Mat but cheaper. I only added enough to dampen the panel and not cover everything. Next came closed cell foam (again from Amazon) that comes in rolls and has a sticky back. I covered everything in this except for the floor and seams - I wanted to be able to inspect potential trouble areas in the future in case rust creeps back in. You can see what the foam looks like on the kitchen wall just above the Amazon sound deadening panels.

I capped it all off with some reflectix insulation in double layers. I've read mixed reviews of whether this actually keeps the van warmer in the winter / cooler in the summer but I figured it couldn't hurt.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


TBC...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Seam rust sucks. (plus a bunch of other things, eventually) Reply with quote

That looks great! Very Happy
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