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1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy
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airschooled
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:30 am    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

white74westy wrote:
Still kind of in a holding pattern. I'm waiting to hear back from Web Cam on an ETA for the cam and followers. I received a voicemail from Faith, that it would be no problem to have the cam redone. It will be repaired and then sent back for heat treat. She wasn't sure about the lifters, as they were actually Scat lube a lobes. That was interesting to me, as I bought the whole set from Jake's store, many years ago. I thought they were the same lifters that Web cam offered...learn something new everyday. Anhow, she was going to try and have them resurfaced. We shall see.

In the meantime, I took posession of my new heads this past week. Len sent over a set of Blueprint specials:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They are truly beautiful!!! I had Len make me a set with the same size valves I had on the prior engine. 42mm intakes and 36mm exhaust valves. They'll be coupled with the DRLA36's to help them breathe. The combustion chambers and the under side of the exhaust valves were ceramic coated. Really excited to get cracking on putting this thing back together, once the camshaft gets back from Web!

This week, while I'm waiting for the cam to come back, I've got to spend a little time messing with the deck height a little more. When I mocked it up last time, I noticed that the #1 piston appeared a little proud of the cylinder:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


We'll see what we come up with once I have the new cylinder shims in place. Either way, I believe the deck height is going to be pretty tight on this build. Based upon the maching done by Len, his calculations should put us somewhere between 7.63:1 and 7.7:1.


Is that deck with a .010Ē shim under the cylinder?
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

airschooled wrote:


Is that deck with a .010Ē shim under the cylinder?


Hi Robbie!

That is after the case was decked and 0.020" shims, provided by Rocky.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

What are those pistons?

How many ccs is the dish?

Never saw a set like that..
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
What are those pistons?

How many ccs is the dish?

Never saw a set like that..


Some of China's finest...AA. When I originally bought them, they were the only 1.8 p&l that I could find anywhere. I looked for NOS etc. and nothing came up anywhere. I bought these from John at aircooled.net. I spent the additional few bucks to make sure they were close, weight wise.

This is from the restoration thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1963252.jpg

The dish is 10cc. This was all accounted for when Len and I spoke about setting the heads up.
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orwell84
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

I assume that you measured them. I have the impression from reading up on them that they are generally good if they all measure out with the usual checks you would find in the Bentley. I have heard that the AA distributor is cooperative in providing a replacement should a piston or cylinder be found out to be out of spec. The set I had all weighed the same, though I never measured them. The scuffing I found on them after 5,000 miles was most likely due to a bent crank.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

OK, cool.

Built a few motors with AA pistons but never a 1.8 bus.
Dish is different than factory, or the 2.0 bus AA i saw before.

If the ccs are in the range then youíre golden there.

Actually AAs measure out weight-wise better than the Mahles or Cofaps that i have seen lately. By far.

Things to watch with them is to make sure the cylinders are round, and not tapered or tilted or parallelogram.
Make sure the cylinders are all the same length..

Usually they are fine - especially for a stockish motor.
Just want to be sure to check them out and make sure you didnít get a bad batch.

If you want to be anal, have an automotive machinist give them a measurement session,
And maybe a quick hone job on a good hone to make them more round and give a specific plateau finish.
Otherwise,
95% of them are just cleaned up, stabbed in, and run.

People usually have good luck, especially if you measure the dimensions.
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

Yippeeee!!!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The cam is back from Web. It looks great! Over the next several days, weeks, months - whatever it takes, I hope to be able to start putting this thing back together.

Before I do, I thought it prudent to measure everything, as I had a little difference in the deck height, on the #1 cylinder, as seen above. I spoke to Rocky and he suggested that I measure everything. So, that is exactly what I have set out to do.

First up was to measure the connecting rods:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Once again, I must give thanks for having a neighbor with a machine shop and the willingness to help me. As you can see, we measured from the outer edge of the large end, to the outer end of the small end. The bearings were in place. Readings were consistent throughout, to within 0.002" (6.552" - 6.554") all the way around.

That was day one. The next day we went back up to his shop. Just in case you've never seen one of these before, this is what a 98" Starrett vernier caliper looks like:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Whoa! Pretty amazing to be able to measure to that level of accuracy over such a large span. Anyhow, I just thought it was cool and wanted to share.

Next it was on to the surface plate:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Apparently this thing was ground/polished to within 0.0005" if memory serves. At any rate, it is an extremely flat surface. This was kind of critical, as we were going to measure the overall dimensions of the cylinders. This is a Mitutoyo height gauge:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

All very fancy stuff. Again, very fortunate to have access to such things!

First order of business was to make sure we had the instrument calibrated for the correct height:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Time to start measuring:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Measurements:

#1)
a. 3.714"
b. 3.714"
c. 3.714"
d. 3.714"

#2)
a. 3.713"
b. 3.712"
c. 3.713"
d. 3.712"

#3)
a. 3.714"
b. 3.714"
c. 3.714"
d. 3.714"

#4)
a. 3.713"
b. 3.713"
c. 3.711"
d. 3.713"

Measurements were taken at the same 4 points for each of the cylinders. The measurement was taken from the lip that the heads sit on, to the base of each cylinder, that goes inside the spigot on the case. Must confess to being pleasantly surprised with the consistency!

We also measured the pistons themselves. First up was to measure from the top of the wrist pin bore, to the the top of the piston:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


We measured both sides for each of the pistons. Again, extremely consistent readings across the board. They were all 1.184"

We also measured the crown of each piston and again, they were all the same. 3.639" The skirts measured 3.661"

I am still yet to measure the cylinder bores and the rings. Hopefully I'll be able to get to them a little later this week.
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orwell84
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

Those are really cool tools. Nice to have a neighbor like that. We are on the same engine building snail track. Smile
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
Those are really cool tools. Nice to have a neighbor like that. We are on the same engine building snail track. Smile


No doubt!!! So fortunate...and there's tons more tools just like that around the shop. I think I remember hearing that it's about $100 per inch on such tools. Shocked

Snail, schmail. We'll get it licked eventually. Laughing One bite at a time bro, one bite at a time. Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

I feel like I'm slowly chugging up a hill...but I can just about see the crest and I feel like once I hit the peak, I should be able to build up some good momentum!
Minutiae and tedium is pretty much what's been going on of late.

Installed the cam gear:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Per a conversation I had with Jake, I used red loctite, with no washers and torqued to 18 foot pounds.

I've been measuring pistons, cylinders and rings. I think I've got to go back and measure the pistons and cylinders again, as I'm not sure the numbers jive. I've tried reaching out to AA...we'll see what they have to say.

While I'm waiting to hear back from them, I measured the piston ring gaps. Bentley shows the acceptable gap as follows:

Upper Ring: 0.014"-0.022"
Lower Ring: 0.012"-0.022"
Oil Ring: 0.010" - 0.016"

My measurements:

Cylinder# Upper Lower
1 0.009" 0.008"
2 0.009" 0.009"
3 0.008" 0.008"
4 0.008" 0.007

So they're all real close to each other, but they require a little work. I got a cheap set of sharpening stones from Harbor Freight. I used some 3-in-1 oil and slowly worked the rings to achieve the additional gap required.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That's it for now. About to reassemble the crank, and get the cam set, making sure that the bearings are happy.

Onwards.
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orwell84
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:08 am    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

The other snail squirms ahead. I am excited for you about your build!

I was wondering what kind of numbers you got for cylinder to bore clearance.
The AAís are dead ringers for stock pistons including the metal bracket thing cast into it. True that sometimes someone gets a wonky part, but thatís what measuring is for. I have heard that they are good about replacing a part that is out of spec. Problems are more likely when you just stab them in, which is what I did. The issues I had with mine were like because of a bent crank. The old pistons were worn and sloppy and probably didnít care that the crank was bent. I think you will be all set. I would run them again.

I went the same route with the button bolts and the recessed holes in the gear. I will be checking clearance for a 30mm pump just in case.

One last question. On my case, the Silverline thrust bearingís oil hole does not quite line up with the galley. How did Rocky deal with that? I know some people move the galley hole, others hog out the bottom of the bearing to elongate the hole on the bearing.

Anyhoo, glad to see your updates.

Btw, you mentioned commiting to Rhinebeck NY at one time. Thatís where I grew up.
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

Attempted to get going again on the engine. Installed the cam bearings and the cam. As soon as I began turning the cam, I could feel resistance at a couple of spots.

Much to my chagrin I noticed some metal shavings:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So frustrated!!! Not sure where to look at this point! I've started reading a couple of the threads on cams and cam bearings. There is some parkerizing material on one of the thrust surfaces. Is this supposed to be here? Is it possible that it is uneven and it could be causing the biding? I've got a call in to Webcam. I hope to hear back from them soon. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

From here it looks like the cam shaved those off on the way into the bearing, did you drop it in evenly?, did it require force to seat down in the bearings?, what do the thrust faces of the bearings and cam look like now?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
From here it looks like the cam shaved those off on the way into the bearing, did you drop it in evenly?, did it require force to seat down in the bearings?, what do the thrust faces of the bearings and cam look like now?


Thanks for checking in! Those shavings came up after rotation. Yes, I dropped the cam evenly, as far as I could tell. It did require a little pressure. I was so disappointed the first go round, that I tried another set of bearings. The picture above was after the second attempt. So bitter, as now I have seemingly two sets of NOS bearings that are shot. The thrust surfaces are gouged on one, and I couldn't even stomach looking at the second, so I just quit for the night. I will try to get pictures of the bearings a little later.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

Sorry to hear that, maybe something like this is going on?: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=750671&highlight=thrust+runout
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

1st set of bearings - thrust bearing:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


2nd set of bearings - thrust bearing:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This may have been chewed worse than the first one.

Cam thrust surfaces.

Gear side:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Other side:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

I did the whacking thing with the thrust bearing which allowed the cam to turn freely. The endplay was still a little tight so I used a sharpening stone to adjust it a bit. I think I tried about 4 different sets of bearings. The reground stock cam I used fit fine. Maybe the webcams are a little tight. Sanding thrust bearings seem to be SOP with aftermarket cams.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
I did the whacking thing with the thrust bearing which allowed the cam to turn freely. The endplay was still a little tight so I used a sharpening stone to adjust it a bit. I think I tried about 4 different sets of bearings. The reground stock cam I used fit fine. Maybe the webcams are a little tight. Sanding thrust bearings seem to be SOP with aftermarket cams.


Not really.....not until you have seated it in. Don't sand the thrust bearings until last resort. The cam needs to be rapped pretty sharply...and in both directions.

Make sure the case is buttoned completely up...all bolts...not just the six big ones.

Rap it fore and aft. Turn about three revs....repeat. Take it apart and inspect.

Each time you put it back together...you will have to repeat at least the initial for and aft rap. The primary thing that is getting aligned when you rap it fore and aft....are the open legs of each bearing shell along the case centerline.

What happens is that they twist and squirm as they make contact with each other putting stress on on the shells as they warp.

Your cam thrust surfaces do look rough. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
orwell84 wrote:
I did the whacking thing with the thrust bearing which allowed the cam to turn freely. The endplay was still a little tight so I used a sharpening stone to adjust it a bit. I think I tried about 4 different sets of bearings. The reground stock cam I used fit fine. Maybe the webcams are a little tight. Sanding thrust bearings seem to be SOP with aftermarket cams.


Not really.....not until you have seated it in. Don't sand the thrust bearings until last resort. The cam needs to be rapped pretty sharply...and in both directions.

Make sure the case is buttoned completely up...all bolts...not just the six big ones.

Rap it fore and aft. Turn about three revs....repeat. Take it apart and inspect.

Each time you put it back together...you will have to repeat at least the initial for and aft rap. The primary thing that is getting aligned when you rap it fore and aft....are the open legs of each bearing shell along the case centerline.

What happens is that they twist and squirm as they make contact with each other putting stress on on the shells as they warp.

Your cam thrust surfaces do look rough. Ray


NOS bearings are on the way from Europe. I will do as you have outlined above.

Orwell84 - I guess I figured out where I'd read the rapping on the camshaft thing. Disregard the question in the PM. Embarassed Laughing Shocked Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:41 am    Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy Reply with quote

The thrust surface runout thing seems to be such a common story now, I'm curious if anybody has taken the time to measure these surfaces on new cams for runout and return them to the manufacturer for a replacement, if runout is present? What was their response? Maybe they will fix this problem once and for all if enough of us start measuring for this up front and returning their cams until they get it right. As for me, I will never install another new cam unless this surface is verified and true out of the box.

Most of us can measure lobe height / lift, but what about the profile; if such a simple thing as cam thrust runout can't be trusted, how do we know the profile is uniform from lobe to lobe? How frustrating is it to build the perfect engine and never be able to tune it just right; it runs just a little off, and you can't figure out why......
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