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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26781
Location: Colorado Springs
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 Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:34 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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Well, yeah that's a good idea, but the SP design is ALREADY well enough insulated.
The manifold contacts the head ONLY through a .050 wall steel tube and small pull studs. Very small contact area, thus limiting heat transfer.
It's really a motorcycle exhaust pipe connection if you think about it, except used on the inlet side.
A steel tube with flanges on the ends is a dead simple project. The only extra difficulty is squaring the end of the tube, which requires a lathe, or disk grinder or face grinder, ect. it might be nice to taper the tube, but not critical.
Make a 2" steel straight manifold then 3d print the upper part  |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26781
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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| evanfrucht wrote: |
| Get some garolite sheet from McMaster (1/2+ inch thick) and make a spacer in addition to the manifolds. It could reduce the heat soak significantly or entirely. It may allow you to use a material for the intakes that doesn't need to be quite as heat resistant. |
I bet you could make them out of steel and make it look easy.
can't even find a picture of them any more. Some were bent but others were just totally straight tapered tube.
SP kadron manifolds were steel and worked very well, and at one time they WERE sought after but now I guess they are forgotten. Somebody needs to re-produce them.
Steel probably would work well for DP too, just so much harder to make the right bends and shapes, but the bottom part is at least straightforward....two piece design?
Steel or aluminum lower manifold, and a poly upper... could be trick  |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:39 am Post subject: Re: A request |
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| richardcraineum wrote: |
i planned to drive my baja to work tomorrow, if i can remember ill hit the intake runners with the thermal gun and give u a few readings. its a boosted 2021 so my iat will be higher than a n/a, and ill run the piss out of it too.
i dont think these heat numbers as are high as u guys are thinking, ive checked my drawthrough 2276 after running the piss out of it on a 100 degree summer day and i believe my runners were upper 120's. even measuring the head right at the exhaust was only about 380 degrees i think.
and yeh heat soaks and evens out through the metals but its not going to increase in temperature without a heat source.
and plastics have come a long ways .. its almost scary the amount of plastics used on engines these days. granted there no fuel running through them but try to find a new car that doesnt have a plastic intake. all radiators have plastic tanks, and there's plastic thermostat housings, valve covers, fuel lines, injectors, and im sure numerous other things i dont know about as im a body guy and not a mechanic. and also, the new vehicles run hotter than the old ones used to...
chickensoup, if you figure out the plastic for this id be interested in commissioning you to print something for me, if your interested? its and old v8 turbo intake piece that was used to convert n/a to drawthrough so itd have to be fuel resistant too |
That would be awesome if you could. If I can figure this stuff out, I can probably make an intake. Although I am size limited. The printer is only so big.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:42 am Post subject: Re: A request |
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Spacers seem like a necessity for a project like this. I understand this would be an easy welding project but hear me out.
If i can print a reliable manifold, just think about the endless possibilities for intake size and shapes.
Also, I'm gonna try out this filament. Nylon 12. The specs are down on the page. https://www.3dmakerengineering.com/products/nylon-12-pro-series-3d-printer-filament
And your right about the low contact area with th 40hp heads. Between the spacer, o ring, I think it will hold together. We will see.
Thanks
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8501
Location: PNW
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Shane Tuttle
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2011
Posts: 173
Location: Arlee, Montana
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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Not to put a monkey wrench in your research:
Isn't plastic going to keep from the manifold from warming up for proper fuel/air atomization? |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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| AlteWagen wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
| SP kadron manifolds were steel and worked very well, and at one time they WERE sought after but now I guess they are forgotten. Somebody needs to re-produce them |
and the steels are now available but the guy making them is sketchy as fu(#.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2434050
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Now that is hilarious!!! Hesperia is like the wild west. Just kidding, well kinda  I'm curious what brought you to that conclusion, lol
_________________
1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )
Last edited by evanfrucht on Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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| oprn wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
| Consider the Type 3 "bakelite" manifold gaskets, used in place of the steel gaskets used on Type 1/2 engines. Anyone know the temp tolerance of that material? |
Never seen that!
Or do you mean the bakelite spacers that held the injectors in place? The ones that were always cracked then you took the injectors out and had to be replaced. They weren't gaskets. |
Like these for the Type 1 (which I didn't know also used phenolic):
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Intake-Manifold-Gasket-FI-Type-1-043-129-707-p/043-129-707.htm
Googling "phenolic spacer" shows a lot of parts... maybe you can buy an off-shelf unit and machine it for your application? |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
Googling "phenolic spacer" shows a lot of parts... maybe you can buy an off-shelf unit and machine it for your application? |
That may very well be an option. I will look for some. thanks for the advice.
Oh and does anyone know roughly how well the spacers work/how many degrees do they lower the total/avg temp on the typical aluminum and or steel manifold?
thanks
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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The spacers are very effective. I made one that is 1 inch thick for my other car which has a 4 barrel carb on a hot intake. It was boiling fuel before and it now it never gets hot to where I cant touch it and leave my hand there. It's basically only gets warm now.
Garolite is one of the many types of phenolic material. Some premade spacers that are sold are marketed as phenolic but they are more of a low grade bakelight material with cheap filler, so be careful there. Bakelight is technically a phenolic compound, it was one of the first actually, but it is not ideal for automotive spacers since it is fairly weak and mixed with wood powder. The Garolite is what you want, it is a higher quality product made with phenolic resin which is strengthened with many layers of woven cloth.
_________________
1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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| I wonder how an insulator like phenolic work vs. an aluminum 3D-printed "porcupine" with lots if fine radiators to expel the heat before it travels up to the manifold? |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| I wonder how an insulator like phenolic work vs. an aluminum 3D-printed "porcupine" with lots if fine radiators to expel the heat before it travels up to the manifold? |
One difference would be that an aluminum static heat sink style manifold could in theory help lower head temps, where as an insulating material like phenolic would prevent heat soak and thus the heads would get hotter and/or stay hot for longer (especially after shut off or in traffic)
Normally the heat wants to even out and warm up the carbs and intake after you stop, but if they are isolated by the spacer then heat in the heads and exhaust has nowhere to go.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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thanks for the info. i will check it out.
meanwhile, it looks like i need to watch a few youtubes because i cant get the pull tool in spaceclaim to adjust to two different tube diameter at each end. right now the walls are 12mm thick.
BTW, what size are the ports of 40hp heads? I got 27mm
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8501
Location: PNW
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1757
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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aright , snapped a few pics of thermal gun on the intake runners after about 4 miles through town. didnt run the hell out of it but was weaving around traffic , running over 3000 rpm. 70 degree day today..
then after sitting about 15 minutes...
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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| richardcraineum wrote: |
| aright , snapped a few pics of thermal gun on the intake runners after about 4 miles through town. didnt run the hell out of it but was weaving around traffic , running over 3000 rpm. 70 degree day today.. |
Good documentation... but it really takes the car atleast 30-60 minutes for a car to fully warm up. That's why they always say it's good to drive a car on long drives vs to grocery store to burn off condensation etc... for long life if you dont drive often m
_________________
1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )
Last edited by evanfrucht on Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5475
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: A request |
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| Chickensoup wrote: |
| BTW, what size are the ports of 40hp heads? I got 27mm |
One of my cheat sheets says the later 40 horse heads have 27mm intake ports. The early heads have 25mm ports, like the 36 horse engine. The port size was upped well before the late square boss heads. The outside diameter of the port seat is listed 31mm with either port size. It would be great to have dual carb intake manifold options for the 36 and 40 horse engines.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:02 am Post subject: Re: A request |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| Chickensoup wrote: |
| BTW, what size are the ports of 40hp heads? I got 27mm |
One of my cheat sheets says the later 40 horse heads have 27mm intake ports. The early heads have 25mm ports, like the 36 horse engine. The port size was upped well before the late square boss heads. The outside diameter of the port seat is listed 31mm with either port size. It would be great to have dual carb intake manifold options for the 36 and 40 horse engines. |
Awesome. thanks. Looks like i guessed correctly otherwise id be starting over on the cad file.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:03 am Post subject: Re: A request |
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| richardcraineum wrote: |
aright , snapped a few pics of thermal gun on the intake runners after about 4 miles through town. didnt run the hell out of it but was weaving around traffic , running over 3000 rpm. 70 degree day today..
then after sitting about 15 minutes...
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thanks for the help. even if the engine wasnt fully warmed up, the heat soak numbers are very nice to have.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:05 am Post subject: Re: A request - Temperature of intake on head |
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not finished however i started work on the intake manifolds. length is 90ish mm. havent calculated volume yet. the carb side hole diameter is 35mm, and the head side is 27mm
Heres the issue i was having before i found the ACTUAL Blend tool. lol
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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