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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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 Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| viiking wrote: |
| I don’t like those positive battery cables with the clamp on connections. They can corrode underneath the clamp. |
That type I use for emergency use ONLY
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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HarrysRatBug
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2021
Posts: 27
Location: Grand Forks ND
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| I think that red cable is actually his negative! And corrosion on the negative can cause a lot of weird problems too. Needs a grommet where the little wires are going thru the firewall as well in the pic of the starter! The small black wire with the big black wire (+) changes to red under the black duct tape, depending where that connects could be a problem as well! |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:17 am Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| HarrysRatBug wrote: |
| I think that red cable is actually his negative! |
You are correct; note the holes for the "positive terminal guard" at the black cable's connector.
| HarrysRatBug wrote: |
| The small black wire with the big black wire (+) changes to red under the black duct tape, depending where that connects could be a problem as well! |
There are quite a few wiring "no-no's" on this vehicle.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:52 am Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| Freeform wrote: |
| I started the car today again after checking all of the connections and it regained a charge enough to start again. i immediately checked the alternators voltage and i got 13.6 before it bumped itself to 13.81 at idle so it was charging. however, a few minutes after it fell to 12.11 and then to 11.81... |
Seems like it was charging, for a bit then stopped.
That 11.81v reading is troublesome. It indicates your battery is drained. If your battery voltage is that low it also suggests the charging voltage numbers are probably lower than your readings because the drained battery is pulling the readings down.
| Freeform wrote: |
here below ive posted photos of my connections and photos of the bulb lights. the first photo shows both the alternator and oil gen lights working and just a few minutes after i removed the alternator bulb and put it back in to see if possibly there could be a bad connection. after that it has not turned back on... im not sure why the idiot light wont turn back on either. maybe a bad connection when it should have been going off in the first place.
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I see lots of white wires. Seems like someone has replaced all the black #15 wires with white wires? What gauge wire are the white wires? They need to be the same or thicker than the OE wires they replaced.
The blue (25A) fuses are scary. Is there a specific reason for running blue fuses? If the wires connected to these blue fuses are stock size, they will likely melt before those fuses blow.
Your fuse box should have only white (8A) fuses. Replace them with the correct ones and clean the ends of the fuses and their clips so you have zero resistance in these connections.
| Freeform wrote: |
| ive posted the back of the speedometer and the fuses (not sure if the fuses have anything to do with the bulb at this moment) along with all the connections that run from the alternators D+ terminal to the bulb in the speedometer, |
Can you post a pic of the trunk side of the fuse box to show how the fuses are wired?
The stock wiring diagram for '67 had the GEN/OIL and turn indicator lamps powered from the INPUT side of the #15 fuses (fuses 1 & 2). These two fuses should have 12v while the ignition switch is ON.
Find the wire from the GEN lamp that ends at the alternator D+... with the ignition ON (engine OFF), remove the wire from the alternator D+ terminal and ground the end of the wire to the case of the alternator. This should cause the GEN lamp to turn ON. If the GEN lamp does not turn ON there is a disconnect between the GEN lamp and the end of the wire. I see the wire color at the D+ is yellow while the wire at the GEN lamp is not. That means there is a junction somewhere. Confirm the current from the GEN lamp is making it to the end of the D+ wire. If D+ does not see current from the GEN lamp (GEN lamp turns ON with key before the engine is started) the alternator will never start charging.
| Freeform wrote: |
the B+ terminal that runs to the starter, and the starter connections to the battery. also in there i threw in a photo of the ignition connections.
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I see the wire at the B+ is a thick black wire. I don't see a thick black wire connected to the same stud that the battery cable connects to at the starter solenoid. Where is the other end of the B+ wire? The B+ wire should be connected to the battery positive (+) terminal. It can do this at the location under the rear seat where the generator VR used to be located, or by connecting the B+ terminal to the starter solenoid where the battery cable connects. If your B+ is connected somewhere else it may explain your charging issues.
I see two smaller wires at the starter solenoid. I assume one is the red/black wire coming from the ignition switch (#50). This activates the starter solenoid. What is the 2nd wire for and where is it connected? It appears to connect to the 2nd stud on the starter solenoid. Only the starter motor should be connected to the 2nd stud. If this wire is the B+ wire, it is connected incorrectly.
I recommend when you charge your battery, disconnect the ground cable. This disconnects the battery from the car's electrical system while charging. This will protect any sensitive electronics (eg. stereo).
| Freeform wrote: |
| i have not ran a load test on the battery as of yet but from everything ive seen its pointed towards a bad alternator(?) |
I agree things are pointing towards a problem with the charging system, but such a problem could have "killed" your battery. Frequent deep discharging of a lead-acid battery will reduce its ability to maintain a charge. Recharging and load testing your battery is the best way to understand if it is healthy, or needs replacement.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 2668
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| HarrysRatBug wrote: |
| I think that red cable is actually his negative! |
You are correct; note the holes for the "positive terminal guard" at the black cable's connector. |
So has he put the cables on the battery wrong??? Positive earth??
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1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| viiking wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
| HarrysRatBug wrote: |
| I think that red cable is actually his negative! |
You are correct; note the holes for the "positive terminal guard" at the black cable's connector. |
So has he put the cables on the battery wrong??? Positive earth?? |
Info I'm finding on the Duralst 96R battery is the negative post is top left and positive top right... looks like he does in fact have them reversed. 
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| viiking wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
| HarrysRatBug wrote: |
| I think that red cable is actually his negative! |
You are correct; note the holes for the "positive terminal guard" at the black cable's connector. |
So has he put the cables on the battery wrong??? Positive earth?? |
So it took someone from "down under" to see this "reversal", eh?
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raydog
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1163
Location: Cape Cod
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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No, i think he has it correct. If you look at the battery pic, you will see the holes for the positive terminal plastic cover next to the charger clip. So that should be positive, although the color coding is all screwed up. That black, or positive wire is going to the starter.
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Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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HarrysRatBug
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2021
Posts: 27
Location: Grand Forks ND
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| Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| Main thing I was getting at is that the crappy clamp connection is on the negative cable. The crappy clamp could have corrosion causing a bad connection. I had a battery come apart because of a bad negative cable. Also the color change under the duct tape tells me there is another connection that could be questionable and cause problems as well! If the voltage readings are taken at the alternator instead of the battery the clamp could affect the readings too! |
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raydog
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1163
Location: Cape Cod
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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I think you need to address the wires and "connectors" first. Even the duct tape wrapped around the wires gives me a feeling that things are sub par, to put it nicely. Getting new battery cables that are the correct color and length will be a great start. It will be less confusing for you to trouble shoot and for folks here that are willing to help. If you rewire your own way, make a log or schematic including the color of the wire. Also address the fuse panel, there is plenty of info in the tech section. Good luck, just do one small area at a time.
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Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 2668
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| raydog wrote: |
| No, i think he has it correct. If you look at the battery pic, you will see the holes for the positive terminal plastic cover next to the charger clip. So that should be positive, although the color coding is all screwed up. That black, or positive wire is going to the starter. |
Yes you are right. I just googled a picture of that battery and the positive terminal is on the left. Just too confusing and half-assed way of wiring and can easily lead to other errors when tracing wires let alone any future owner who inadvertently just puts red on positive. I know I would!
Now I know why the other red cable had the secondary wire cut off.
Now living “down under” we see everything the right way up. It’s you in the Americas that are wrong. Hell even your toilet water rotates the wrong way round when you flush.😂
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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raydog
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1163
Location: Cape Cod
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| viiking wrote: |
| raydog wrote: |
| No, i think he has it correct. If you look at the battery pic, you will see the holes for the positive terminal plastic cover next to the charger clip. So that should be positive, although the color coding is all screwed up. That black, or positive wire is going to the starter. |
Yes you are right. I just googled a picture of that battery and the positive terminal is on the left. Just too confusing and half-assed way of wiring and can easily lead to other errors when tracing wires let alone any future owner who inadvertently just puts red on positive. I know I would!
Now I know why the other red cable had the secondary wire cut off.
Now living “down under” we see everything the right way up. It’s you in the Americas that are wrong. Hell even your toilet water rotates the wrong way round when you flush.😂 |
I'm not buying it. I am actually a licensed plumber, and I know damn well that the water in my toilet rotates counter clockwise, and that is the correct rotation. Perhaps someone installed your toilet, or water closet backwards.
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Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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