Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts New!  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Glad I Checked
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Igeo
Samba Member


Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 678
Location: Oakland, CA
Igeo is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:17 pm    Post subject: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

Been having some wonky radiator fan operation. So I thought to have a look at the radiator temp sensor. My first thought was that over time, corrosion builds up and creates resistance and heat, but the sensor terminals look clean. Either that or the fan is worn and is pulling too much current. I'll re-terminate these wires and test it. Maybe I can determine a current draw. I'm surprised a fuse didn't blow.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DanHoug
Samba Member


Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 2558
Location: Bemidji, MN
DanHoug is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

i'll bet you a donut that your fan is starting to draw high current. it's in a constant barrage of water, abrasive road grime including salt, and has to move a high CFM. time to refurbish/replace. haven't refurbed one but disassembly and re-oiling the bushing can do wonders. you caught it in time.

the front heater fan does the same thing... start drawing more current as their bushing dry out and corrode.
_________________
-dan

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. But he who knows he doesn't know, knows.

'87 Westy, ratty but drive anywhere.
'89 Westy, gorgeous but hasn't been gone thru to drive anywhere.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 45045

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

As mentioned your problem is probably your bushings have dried out. If your bushing keeps your fan from running at its design speed the current will go up markedly and things start to corrode and/or melt from the prolonged heat from running with such a high amp draw.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jimf909 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 5314
Location: Seattle
jimf909 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

You may also want to check the wiring at the fuse box. I had a small fire at the 30 amp fuse for the rad fan once after driving all day with the a/c on and the rad fan running on high.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=519615
crazyvwvanman wrote:
More electrical resistance gives LESS amps flowing in a circuit. The problem with the early fuse panel is heat, from slight extra resistance at the fuse tip contact points. That contact heat builds up and can melt the plastic around the fuse holder and even the fuse panel cover. Cleaning the contacts of the fuse holder and putting in a new fuse may help. But the spring tension of the fuse holder can be damaged by the heat, particularly if the plastic melts and lets the contacts spread wider.

The case for motors is different. They can pull a lot of amps while trying to spin up to normal speed and if there is some mechanical reason why they can't fully spin up quickly then the duration of the higher amp flow can heat things in the wiring path up to the point of damage unless the fuse blows. That is also why increasing the fuse size on a motor circuit is unwise.

Mark

rsxsr wrote:
....... Either the wiring/ connectors have too much resistance causing the amp draw to go up,.........
........ or the fan is on it's way out and is drawing too much load. You should verify the amp load with an amp meter when it is running. .......

_________________
Abscate wrote:

Do not get killed, do not kill others.


Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
AZ Landshaper Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2009
Posts: 1678
Location: The Old Pueblo
AZ Landshaper is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

Man Ive had at least three fires in these vans. One was real bad. 1994 in a 1972 westy/ campmobile. The dash caught on fire in the raton pass at 1130 at night. I was stuck in raton for 3 days rewiring the thing with only phone line to work with.

God bless that rig. Was a refugee from a mexican junk yard. Had huge cattle guards welded to the front bumper like some of those bulli vans. Came from Novato to be exact. Cost me 500 bucks and I lived in it for 18 mos. A lot of great woman passed through that slider threshold. There was this one gal..man o man she was making dreams come true. LOL

Either way. Fire is destructive. Rewiring can be a real chore. I can see how the rad fan could draw crazy amps if it were to bind up or see some resistance.
_________________
Support Small Business.

-------------------------------------------------------
85 Weekender w/ EJ22
Previously
64, 71, 72, 73, 76, 81, 84, 85 & 87 Campmobiles and Westfalias
and a 67 bug.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Igeo
Samba Member


Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 678
Location: Oakland, CA
Igeo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

Tested the fan system and both hi an lo speeds function.
The fan sounds pretty gravelly though, so I need to see about removing it to evaluate if it can be lubed or if I need a new motor.
_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
djkeev Premium Member
Samba Moderator


Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 26978
Location: North West New Jersey
djkeev is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

The fan blade is a LEFT thread..... righty loosey, lefty tighty.

The blade is just a slide press fit on the shaft, the special washer under the nut keeps things from slipping.

Work oil into the fan shaft end, prop it up so it is vertical, as you spin the motor, take you time, get it down in there.

Now flip it over, drill a 1/16 hole in the radiator side, there is a little bulge at the end of the shaft.
Work oil into that small hole you made as you spin the shaft.

Clean it off, put a dab of silicone or a piece of duct tape over the hole.

The fan will NOT spin freely, there is a drag but it should rotate freely and smoothly.

Put it back in..... fix the melted plug..... off you go!

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
shadetreemech
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2005
Posts: 673
Location: Claremont, CA
shadetreemech is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

I'd check the ground tree on the Driver's side wall under the dash. That where that brown ground wire goes back to. Mine shorted out there, too.

Dan
_________________
'84 GL 1.9
'01 Volvo V70 T5
'88 Westy - "Miss Dorothy"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 9472
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
Vanagon Nut is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

Igeo wrote:
Tested the fan system and both hi an lo speeds function.
The fan sounds pretty gravelly though, so I need to see about removing it to evaluate if it can be lubed or if I need a new motor.


Looking closely at image you show, it may be that the melt happened on the low speed circuit.

If you could find a spec here for typical current draw on low and high speed or if the motor shows specs, measure and compare your fans' current draw? This might help determine if fault lies at lack of lube or an electrical fault inside fan? That said, most VOM's have a 20 Amp current limit.

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

VE7TBN
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Igeo
Samba Member


Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 678
Location: Oakland, CA
Igeo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

So one thing led to another and an hour later it's out. Drop the spare tire hardware, disconnect the AC line hold downs, support the radiator with wood and jack, remove the lower radiator supports, drop it down and then remove the fan and shroud assembly. Not too bad a job.

The motor really sounds dry. Not sure if I can justify trying to lube it. I haven't looked at options for new ones.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
djkeev Premium Member
Samba Moderator


Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 26978
Location: North West New Jersey
djkeev is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

OE is usually better than after market.

No harm in trying lubrication first.
If it fails?

Oh Well.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Igeo
Samba Member


Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 678
Location: Oakland, CA
Igeo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

Dave, thanks for the heads up on the reverse thread.
New motors are $200. I'll try lubing the one I have, but as rough as this thing sounds.....
_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DanHoug
Samba Member


Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 2558
Location: Bemidji, MN
DanHoug is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

drill a small hole in the rear housing where the armature would spin... put some oil in thru said hole. hope for love.

might'n be able to oil the front bushing by slopping oil in between the fan and bushing with a Zoom oil spout. or just brute messy-ness.
_________________
-dan

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. But he who knows he doesn't know, knows.

'87 Westy, ratty but drive anywhere.
'89 Westy, gorgeous but hasn't been gone thru to drive anywhere.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Steve M.
Samba Member


Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 5737
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
Steve M. is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

One question about these motors...

What are the two pipe/hose connections on the motor for?
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
djkeev Premium Member
Samba Moderator


Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 26978
Location: North West New Jersey
djkeev is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

I always assumed fresh cooling air to the fan motor.

My local insect population thinks it is a really cool condo for living in!

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jimf909 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 5314
Location: Seattle
jimf909 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

Steve M. wrote:
One question about these motors...

What are the two pipe/hose connections on the motor for?


Let's see what we come up with this time...

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...652a9cdf2d
_________________
Abscate wrote:

Do not get killed, do not kill others.


Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Steve M.
Samba Member


Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 5737
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
Steve M. is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

jimf909 wrote:
Steve M. wrote:
One question about these motors...

What are the two pipe/hose connections on the motor for?


Let's see what we come up with this time...

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...652a9cdf2d



Ohhh...imagine that. Wink
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Igeo
Samba Member


Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 678
Location: Oakland, CA
Igeo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked Reply with quote

So in the end I ordered a new motor and fan, and of course re-terminated the connector. All works as it should without the scary noises.

The end plate is staked to the motor body, and with a dremel one can cut the folded bits off and open the motor up. It's a permanent magnet motor, and the inboard end (brushes end) of the armature is located with a bushing. Mine looked pretty good. The fan shaft end is located with a sealed bearing, and that's what was really dry and gravelly. The bearing does not appear to be replaceable without drilling out the plate that contains it.

I realize I could have lubed it as was suggested above, but the bearing was dry enough to have surely damaged it. A bit of oil would have bought some time, but it's all water under the bridge now.

Here is what we have:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB