Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine
Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Whaanga
Samba Member


Joined: May 07, 2016
Posts: 623
Location: Rochester, NY
Whaanga is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:30 pm    Post subject: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

Hello -

I'm helping my friend prepare to install a rebuilt type 4 engine in his 73, auto trans bus.

He called me last summer and said he had been on a trip that took him about 150 miles from home. On the way back, he heard a 'click' from the engine, he lost power, and when he pulled over, he reported oil all over the engine bay.

He tells me he checks the oil at every gas fill and on this particular trip, he was confident that he had the proper amount of oil in his engine. He also reports that he had a knowledgable professional help him with a valve adjustment about 800 miles prior to the 'incident.'

He had the bus towed home and basically put it away so he could regroup and make plans.

Once he got home. we found pieces like this scattered in the engine bay:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Two weeks ago we pulled the engine and tranny and were able to get a close look. Here's what we saw:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As we worked to separate the tranny from the engine, we could rotate it enough to line up two of the drive plate bolts for removal. But the engine would not rotate all the way around to remove the third bolt. We had to pull back the bell housing just enough to squeeze a 13mm box wrench in-between the housing and the torque converter.

Once separated, we began to tear things down and found more evidence of problems. We found that the cable from the T stat to the flaps was broken. But we also saw that someone had installed the 1/2 flap BELOW the frame guides so that it was completely frozen and unable to move as seen here:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


When we pulled the valve covers, we found that the intake valve on #2 cylinder was frozen and that the rocker arm was able to move way too far:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


We also found this odd little wire inside the intake for the #4 cylinder:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Lastly, here is a photo of the inside of the engine looking at the piston:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



SO -- My question is - what the heck happened here? I have a fair amount of experience with car work, but less so with engine rebuilds (and diagnosing engine failure). I would be very grateful to hear your thoughts ....


Thanks
_________________
Late 1973 Bay w/a transplanted 914 Engine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
69BahamaYellow
Samba Member


Joined: April 22, 2011
Posts: 535
Location: Talbott, TN
69BahamaYellow is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

Head of valve broke off and blew through a piston. Rod then broke free from piston and beat a hole through top of case. Maybe you can salvage a few parts for your next engine. Sorry to see this happened to you.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50260

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

Pretty much a boat anchor or lawn ornament. Maybe you can save two of the rods and a few other miscellaneous parts?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
busdaddy
Samba Member


Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51057
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
busdaddy is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

Bummer, the "odd little wire" was the oil ring expander at one time.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
timvw7476
Samba Member


Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2182
Location: seattle
timvw7476 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:57 pm    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

that wire would be what's left of an oil control ring assembly.
when checking valves, doesn't hurt to drop the 1/2 side bottom tin & see that
the thermostat is STILL there & tugging on the cable. Maybe check the routing of cable & the nylon wheel directing cable up to flaps. Flap failures are usually catastrophic, but you get engine ping before they sign off.
At highway speeds you won't here a thing. Gotta have gauges, oil pressure,
temp as well, to catch that kind before it lets go like that.
I'm not a fan of extra instruments so I trace my thermo cable routing when oil
change or valve adjust time arrives.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22568
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

Good news is you can drill as many holes as you like to get the engine and transmission separated.
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.


Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4532
Location: Arizona Highways
borninabus is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:16 am    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

not the dreaded "you need an entire new engine" click again!
_________________
71 Ghia A/S - 88 Van A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50260

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

The left side thermostat flap is in the proper failsafe full cooling position, driving as much air as possible over the heads and down through the oil cooler.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sjbartnik
Samba Member


Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5986
Location: Brooklyn
sjbartnik is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

Wow I think that would have been a little bit more than a "click"

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the head of one of the valves. Obviously it has come off its stem - this is called "dropping a valve"

The valve head dropped off into the combustion chamber and 69BahamaYellow concisely described what happened next.

Ouch.

There are many possible causes for why a valve may break like that, usually involving being run hot for a long time. Improper valve adjustment can contribute - valves transfer heat to the cylinder head while they are at rest in the valve seats. If valves are adjusted too tight, they spend less time in contact with their seats and therefore can transfer less heat to the head.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50260

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

About the only warning one would get that this is about to happen is the valve adjustment being very tight prior to adjustment because the valve stem was stretching and/or the valve seat was receding into the head. There may have been some funny noises in the exhaust and a slow loss of power over the last few hundred miles as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
cmonSTART
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2014
Posts: 1915
Location: NH
cmonSTART is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Wow I think that would have been a little bit more than a "click"


No kidding! This guy must have some seriously nice sound deadening installed!
_________________
'78 Bus 2.0FI
de K1IGS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mikedjames
Samba Member


Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 2714
Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
mikedjames is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

My T1 did that, the engine noise changed a bit, and I lost power . Came to a stop after half a mile of trying to work out what the new noise was, with pieces of piston lying in a cylinder and a hole in the top of the engine.
The valve head that fell off was so mangled by the time I stopped that it took a while to recognise it.
_________________
Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Whaanga
Samba Member


Joined: May 07, 2016
Posts: 623
Location: Rochester, NY
Whaanga is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments - I appreciate the chance to learn. This engine had some plumbing that I don't recognize. It connects directly into the heads. Can anyone tell me what this piping is and what is the function? And why does my engine not have it?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Late 1973 Bay w/a transplanted 914 Engine


Last edited by Whaanga on Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50260

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

It is the remnants of the factory air injection system which injected a small amount of fresh air into the exhaust to give a cleaner burn. It was used on '73 and '74 engines.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22568
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: The Sad Tale of a Particular Type 4 Engine Reply with quote

You might have remnants of an extra pulley on the crankshaft , which spun an extra fan belt turning a big pump sitting on the rear of the engine, on top of the fan shroud.

Usually that’s a cymbal crash ffff, not a triangle ppp

Very Happy
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.