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Rhino1966 Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2021 Posts: 25 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:58 am Post subject: 914 2.0 install |
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I just purchased a 69 Squareback that has a 914 2.0 motor installed. Previous owner has the Bus Transaxle installed it was not running. What kind of mods are needed for electrical, fuel, mounting. cooling? |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33882 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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No recipe for that, though similar mods have been done by folks here, so you should be able to get some good advice.
So it's not running... post pics so we know the state it's in.
Carbs? FI? |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13247 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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yeah post pics of what you have so far |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5986 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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$10 it's a Bus engine and not a 914 engine _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13843 Location: White Mountains Arizona
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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It could very well be a type 2 late model bus engine with the trans as a transplant to the type 3.
Post some photos of what is in there, including the transmission. _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
$10 it's a Bus engine and not a 914 engine |
Yep!...but it could be a 411/412 engine...which is a 914 engine (and vica versa)....but coupled to a bus trans....with bus gearing....it might as well be a bus engine. Ray |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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What most of us are doing is using the bus mount, and adapting it to the type 3 ends. That's what we did when we installed my old 914 1.7 L into my son's car. Yes Ray, it got the head gasket and under cylinder shims removed to help bump up the CR. I had planned to run it on FI, but my son has it running on carbs.
To the OP, the hardest thing you're going to have to find is some sort of cooling boot and adapter. My son is using a NLA type 4 wagon only boot.
I'd probably swap the bus trans out and put in a type 3 trans, and go for the better gearing.
There's also a short write up on doing the type 4 into a type 3 conversion (use that in the search function), that covers some of the info you're looking for, along with active links to threads like Steve's (Clatter's) where he's going thru the whole car, not just the engine(although he does go thru it too).
I hope this helps. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Rhino1966 Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2021 Posts: 25 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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The motor turns but has not been started for a few years. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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Just so you know what you have:
That is NOT s Porsche 914 2.0L engine.
At best...that is a VW bus 2.0L engine ...or it could be a 1.8L or even a 1.7L.
The items that are tell tale:
1. The oil filler being down below near the lower right corner of the engine case means that it was either a bus engine case or a VW 411 or 412 wagon engine case.
All of the Porsche 914 whether they were 1.7L, 1.8L or 2.0L used a top mounted short dipstick and a top mounted oil filler.
The only other possibility is that the previous owner...took a case from a 1.7L, 1.8L VW 411 or 412 sedan or Porsche 914....or 2.0L 914...all of which have top mounted dipsticks and oil fillers.....and drilled out the lower boss to move the oil fill down low to work on the type 3 wagon with it compact engine lid.
Thats very possible.
2. The Porsche 914 2.0L and the VW bus 2.0L....share an engine case (except for a few internal changes made late in the VW bus for hydraulic lifters)....they share the 71mm crankshaft......they share the connecting rods.....and thats it.
The Porsche 914 version of the 2.0L...has totally different heads, cam and pistons. The spark plug angle of the Porsche 2.0 is unique to Porsche and requires totally different upper sheet metal with different spark plug wire hole location.
And....the 2.0L Porsche heads.....aside from the plug angle...are easy to spot because the intake manifolds only have three bolts.....and all other type 4 engines have four.
In your picture....your engine is NOT using Porsche 914 2.0L sheet metal or heads.
This is not saying its not a great engine. It ,ay still be a 2.0L. But...if its a stock bus 2.0L...its about 70hp.....which is still 10hp less than the D-jet injected 1.7L....but a pretty damn good engine nonetheless.
And.....it could also be quite a bit better HP...if the previous owner took a 2.0L bus engine and put a better cam in it and better pistons for higher compression.....leaving all else the same and putting a good set of twin carbs on.....it could easily be just about as much HP as the US spec 2.0L 914 (just about 100hp) or the Euro spec 1.8L with carbs and high compression that was used in the 412 (about 90 hp).
Ray |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13247 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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The welds are crude and I'd plan on eventually re-doing them BUT it's ready to plug in and go in my opinion. won't take much, keyed power to the coil, blue green wire to the oil sender, the regulator under the back seat for the generator will need some wires changed for the alternator, here's how that goes. I'd use a generic square mr. gasket type fuel pump
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Rhino1966 Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2021 Posts: 25 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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Ok so its a bus 2.0 good to know. I installed a stock wiring kit for the 69 Type 3. Is there any mod I need to do to wire the Alternator? Also I noticed an Electric Fuel Pump mounted under the fuel tank. Guess I still need that. Is there some type of bellows to install for cooling and will overheating be an issue if I don't? Also they made a Mustache, can I get a stock Bus one and make it work? I there a year to reference for parts? |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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Rhino1966 wrote: |
Ok so its a bus 2.0 good to know. I installed a stock wiring kit for the 69 Type 3. Is there any mod I need to do to wire the Alternator? Also I noticed an Electric Fuel Pump mounted under the fuel tank. Guess I still need that. Is there some type of bellows to install for cooling and will overheating be an issue if I don't? Also they made a Mustache, can I get a stock Bus one and make it work? I there a year to reference for parts? |
I'm not up on total conversions of type 4 into type 3. I know most of what needs to be done...but not the little details.....lots of threads on this especially in the shoptalk forums.
As for the fuel pump....what fuel system are you planning to run?
The Porsche 914 2.0L ran D-jet.....and the 2.0L system except for one tweak in the MPS...which you can do....and 2.0L D-jet injectors...which you can get....and Porsche 914 2.0L manifold runners...which you can get or skip and use 1.7L runners....so if you were wanting to go to stock injection....the pump up front would probably be fine to stay there if its working.
But it looks like you have nice twin carbs....so ....personally I would get a different...lower rated pump for carbs with a regulator for that.
A pump like this would be more than enough and would fit where teh original pump does
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_...s/80000100
For a regulator...something like this that dials down to the psi your carbs require
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_.../30-803QFT
I would ask around on the performance forum for electric fuel pumps and regulators because there are a lot of regulators that have accuracy issues.
I should know if anything odd needs to be done for the alternator to generator hookups.... ....but I have never had to do it. I am sure there is a how to diagram in here somewhere we can both use.
Ray |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
$10 it's a Bus engine and not a 914 engine |
DingDingDingDing!! Winner!
I did a type 4 in my Fastback.
Lots of details in my build thread.
Good luck finding any!
‘Nogoodwithusernames’ did an excellent compilation of type 4 conversion threads,
Not too long ago either. _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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The wiring diagram that Erik G posted up above will work just fine. You might need to lengthen the gen/alt light wire depending on where you put your alternator voltage regulator. On Rob's car, we mounted it on the sheet metal just above the alt in it's own custom harness. On his car, that "wall" is the back wall of the cooling duct on the right side, and is held in place with 2 screws. It's also the solid state version (about the size of a Nokia phone)
Like Erik also mentioned, you can run a Mr.Gasket 042S electric pump to run your cars. I've been running one in my 65 Notch for over 10 years now. My son (Rob) is using one in his 1.7L t-4 engine on carbs. This pump is a low pressure pump that doesn't need a pressure regulator. In my case I just zip tied it to the front beam as these are better pusher pumps, versus the stock mechanical puller pump. You don't want to run the stock electric pump, as it puts out too much fuel pressure. You can use the existing wiring though, but under the dash you'll need to set up a power wire off the fuse box. Ideally you'll install an impact switch that shuts off the power in the event of an accident.
Going off your pics, it looks like someone had installed the engine before, so it's just a matter of putting it back in and hooking it up.
Edit: That trans hanger set up looks really overkill. But then that engine hanger bar looks kind of funky as well. You might want to look for another bus bar, and see about doing a cleaner set up on it. Something like this for example.
_________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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nogoodwithusernames Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2014 Posts: 598 Location: CA, USA
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:32 am Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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Erik G wrote: |
The welds are crude and I'd plan on eventually re-doing them BUT it's ready to plug in and go in my opinion. won't take much, keyed power to the coil, blue green wire to the oil sender, the regulator under the back seat for the generator will need some wires changed for the alternator, here's how that goes. I'd use a generic square mr. gasket type fuel pump
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Notice this is for an internally regulated alternator which as far as I know, all of the T4 alternators need a voltage regulator.
I would recommend purchasing a T4 VR and using the stock alternator harness. The big hefty cable off the alt goes to the battery connection on the starter, the rest of the harness already has a plug and goes straight into the VR and all you need to do is splice the generator light wire into D+ _________________ 71 Squareback, 1.7l T4 w/ crank trigger fuel and spark
(Conversion thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732508&highlight= or https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=151375&sid=f0542d44a322d290c29d6609fac7f215 )
74 914, 2.0L w/ D-Jet
-Derek |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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nogoodwithusernames wrote: |
Erik G wrote: |
The welds are crude and I'd plan on eventually re-doing them BUT it's ready to plug in and go in my opinion. won't take much, keyed power to the coil, blue green wire to the oil sender, the regulator under the back seat for the generator will need some wires changed for the alternator, here's how that goes. I'd use a generic square mr. gasket type fuel pump
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Notice this is for an internally regulated alternator which as far as I know, all of the T4 alternators need a voltage regulator.
I would recommend purchasing a T4 VR and using the stock alternator harness. The big hefty cable off the alt goes to the battery connection on the starter, the rest of the harness already has a plug and goes straight into the VR and all you need to do is splice the generator light wire into D+ |
Yup, that's what my son did (used a solid state regulator). He also used as much of the stock wiring as possible. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Rhino1966 Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2021 Posts: 25 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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WOW!!! That's for all the input. I was debated switching back to a stock style motor, but with all this info I will keep it. I know for motor and trans info I need to refer to a bus motor. What year would you say this is? |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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Rhino1966 wrote: |
WOW!!! That's for all the input. I was debated switching back to a stock style motor, but with all this info I will keep it. I know for motor and trans info I need to refer to a bus motor. What year would you say this is? |
The trans looks like a standard T-1/T-3 IRS unit with a big fancy hanger bracket. A bus trans uses ears and a bracket to support it from above. This looks like someones improvised version of it (most of which is not needed). _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Rhino1966 Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2021 Posts: 25 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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The Type 3 uses a bellows to direct the air for cooling. Are there any problems with cooling? Is there some way to adapt a bellows that would fit? |
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Mike Fisher Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 17962 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: 914 2.0 install |
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Yes there is a plastic bellows that attaches to your round fan. The plastic bellows are scarce and people have fabricated custom sheet metal bellows for their cars. I believe there are dimensioned plans for the custom bellows here somewhere. _________________ https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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