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How can I install T4 engine on Ghia?
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Avi750
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:45 pm    Post subject: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

Hi all
I got a T4 case (I assume it's type 4, the num on it is: S112... 004 101 102A... with 100mm hole diameter for the cylinder)

So the question is, how can I fit this engine to my 73' Ghia?
I didn't stated the building of the engine yet, so all recommendations are welcome

Appreciate your help
Avi
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infiniteLoop
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=451281&start=0
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Wreck
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

http://www.sharpbuilt.com.au/sharpbuilt1/page11.htm

This is the most affordable kit you can get . you just need to be a little patient as I think the kits may be made to order. Also check the samba classifieds .
If you have fair fabrication skills you can make the upper cylinder tins by cutting and joining #1 to #3 , so you need 2 sets of upper tins. then make a mount for the alternator . This is called the Cali method , named after Joe Cali AKA Nextgen who wrote the manual on how to convert the engine to upright. Nextgen may chime in to say if the manual is still available .
Both rear type 1 tins can be cut down to fit the type 4 . the same with the front tin .
I made my own kit . If you can use fibreglass it is not that difficult just time consuming .

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

That’s amazing!
For some reason I thought there were body mods involved.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

When ordering parts from sharpbuilt, do you call in the your parts order? or can you do it by email ?
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Wreck
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

APPLEGREENVW wrote:
When ordering parts from sharpbuilt, do you call in the your parts order? or can you do it by email ?


I don't know Mike personally but I would guess email if outside Australia would be the best form of contact , I did hear through the local grapevine that he can be a little hard to get in contact with .

Prices in 2015 were $295 AUD for the cylinders covers upper and lower I think . And $185 AUD for the alternator stand and oil filter with alloy cap .
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Wreck
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:23 am    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

jeffrey8164 wrote:
That’s amazing!
For some reason I thought there were body mods involved.


The type 4 is slightly longer but narrower than a type 1 . It makes spark plug changes a simple affair particularly with VW heads not the 2lt 914 or 912 heads
the 1700 and 1800 bus flywheels will fit in a late bug trans , just need to move the spigot bearing from the crank to the flywheel . But the best option is using a new conversion 200mm flywheel ,(better selection of clutches)
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Vanapplebomb
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

Avi750 wrote:
Hi all
I got a T4 case (I assume it's type 4, the num on it is: S112... 004 101 102A...


The Type 4 case number will be stamped one of two places. Rear engine models (411, 412, and detuned Type 4 engines for busses) will be stamped at the base of the breather chimney. Mid engine models (914) are stamped above the #3 cylinder opening near the bellhousing mating flange.


Avi750 wrote:
...with 100mm hole diameter for the cylinder)


That is the stock size for a T4 case, and fits stock sized pistons/cylinders (87.5, 90, 93, and 94mm) as well as the first oversize bore of 96mm... 96mm cylinders are the same dimensions as 93/94mm cylinders, just with a larger bore for aftermarket pistons.

Avi750 wrote:
So the question is, how can I fit this engine to my 73' Ghia?
I didn't stated the building of the engine yet, so all recommendations are welcome

Appreciate your help
Avi


The amount of work and extra parts you need depends on engine. Particularly the flywheel. There were different sizes and types. The 411/412/bus 110 and 115mm flywheels/pressure plates from 1.7 and 1.8 engines will normally slip in a 12V Type 1 transmission with no issues. The 228mm flywheel/pressure plate needs a little bit of material ground off the bellhousing behind the starter motor for the pressure plate to clear. All of these flywheels need the pilot bearing moved in order to fully support the input shaft of the transmission. The
Pilot bearing was pressed into the crankshaft, and needs to be relocated to the center of the flywheel. This requires the felt ring and steel retainer ring to be removed before the bearing is pressed in. Type 1 input shafts are shorter, that’s why it needs to be moved. If the hole is a bit rusty, it may need to be reemed to fit the bearing. Just for reference, this is where the 914 pilot bearings are located.

The 914 have a different ring gear location moved outboard slightly, which causes issues with the factory starter motor. It can be machined back a few mm to engage well, but the other flywheels are still pretty cheap, and generally clean up well with a fresh grind.

Other than those details, the case bolts right up. Then you just need to decide what cooling system you want to convert to. Look into the conversion manual by Nextgen if you have basic fabrication skills. It uses a combo of common T1 and T4 parts, cutting, and some welding. A more turn key kit is a Raby DTM. I wouldn’t use anything with a 911 fan... not a great set up if you value even running temps between cylinders.
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Last edited by Vanapplebomb on Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Vanapplebomb
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

Wreck wrote:
But the best option is using a new conversion 200mm flywheel ,(better selection of clutches)


Everyone has their preferences, but I disagree on this one. With a 200mm clutch, you do need more options, because a higher performance engine is going to need a stronger pressure plate than stock. The factory T4 clutches, although limited options, have a lot more holding power than the Type 1 clutches. Even the 210mm T4 clutch. I would loosely equate the factory 210 holding power with a stage two aftermarket 200 pressure plate, and without the heavier pedal pressure.

If he has a 228mm or 914 flywheel, and needs another flywheel anyways, then yeah, I would consider the aftermarket 200 flywheels.
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nextgen
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

Hi Avi

Well you can go to Youtube for lots of info. or The T-4 Forum.

To make it simple, the engine in my photos back in 1992 is the same engine in my car for 30 years untouched, internally.

As for power again Youtube.

As clutch has come up, I used a stock 210 bus flywheel and bus clutch.
I my first drive up to a Traffic light on a hill I was amazed as to the holding power with the bus clutch on my 1700bug.

Due to the Virus I am out of manuals, but Aircooled.net is my sole supplier many in stock.

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Type-4-Upright-Conve...manual.htm

Oh on the first video have the Volume up.
Also the guy that did conversion is very skilled, don't like his work scare you away. Much of my engine was pop riveted,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deD2JxpUA48

https://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=1

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Wreck
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

Vanapplebomb wrote:
Wreck wrote:
But the best option is using a new conversion 200mm flywheel ,(better selection of clutches)


Everyone has their preferences, but I disagree on this one. With a 200mm clutch, you do need more options, because a higher performance engine is going to need a stronger pressure plate than stock. The factory T4 clutches, although limited options, have a lot more holding power than the Type 1 clutches. Even the 210mm T4 clutch. I would loosely equate the factory 210 holding power with a stage two aftermarket 200 pressure plate, and without the heavier pedal pressure.

If he has a 228mm or 914 flywheel, and needs another flywheel anyways, then yeah, I would consider the aftermarket 200 flywheels.


I've just gone down a learning curve on this very subject , I started with a 215mm Sachs , thinking that a light Ghia shouldn't have an issue . 170 WHP , fine on the street , but did not like high RPM starts on a prepped strip . No one makes a HD clutch for the 215mm bus . I had a custom clutch made locally , it had a very heavy copper multi pad disc . That then caused shift issues and premature synco wear . Now changed to a 200mm set up with a stage 2 Kennedy and exedy disc . I can now change to a better disc or pressure plate if needed .
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

Have to agree with Wreck on this one.
A stock 210 mm Type 4 clutch will hold 130-135 hp and 195-200 Nm max.
A stock 215 mm Type 4 clutch will handle 135-140 hp and 210 Nm.
A stock 228 mm Type 4 bus clutch will hold around 210 hp and 270 Nm.

Use a disc with more grip (At least the ones that are readily for sale) will increase holding torque marginally. They can perhaps save the day if youre right on the borderline with a stock disc.

Edit: These are max values, especially on the torque. Over time I have seen several older German built 2,4´s with just a 215 mm clutch and a HD disc. Some of them were over 160 hp, but they were typically rather gutless due to the often used Schleicher cams and way loo large intake ports for the power. They were rpm engines.
Henning.de makes HD 215 mm clutches that along with their disc will hold 250 Nm torque. But they are pricey, even for us, so the overseas guys will blink once or twice before they charge the credit card. For them it will make more sense to buy an aftermarket 200 mm flywheel and use regular type 1 clutch stuff.

3 years ago or so, I built a 135 hp 190 Nm 1914 for a buggy. It had a 215 mm bus clutch. It went fine. No problems. The year after the guy swopped exhaust to a better version, played a little with the carbs and got a Black box ignition installed. These things together gave the engine another 5 hp and 5 Nm more torque, but over a 250 rpm wider rpm range. That was too much for the clutch. Now everything above 2nd gear was a no go on WOT. Its that close.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

Alstrup,
that was a great 4 lines of information, I guess when you want power to the ground the clutch is an item I have over looked.

Not that in my engines case

I am sure you know this. When T-4 conversions were the early stages of life, and t-4 performance parts were made on an individual basis, guys would use performance T-1 Discs, a bit smaller in diameter but they worked for their needs.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

The first type4 conversion I had back in the late eighties had a factory VW 200mm clutch . Quite a rare item I’d guess .
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

Wreck wrote:
APPLEGREENVW wrote:
When ordering parts from sharpbuilt, do you call in the your parts order? or can you do it by email ?


I don't know Mike personally but I would guess email if outside Australia would be the best form of contact , I did hear through the local grapevine that he can be a little hard to get in contact with .

Prices in 2015 were $295 AUD for the cylinders covers upper and lower I think . And $185 AUD for the alternator stand and oil filter with alloy cap .

Which e/mail did you use to order parts? I wished sharpbuilt would have a better website, to order online parts from.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

[email protected] is the one I used .
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

I purchased a Sharpbuilt complete fan shroud and front & rear tin replacements (all fiberglass).


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Type 4 Stroker. I ended up widening the engine compartment sheet metal to allow the manifolds to clear. I have Porsche heads. Not sure if VW heads would clear OK without widening.

Also needed to cut down the "chimney" to lower the fan (fan from 911).
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

What's the price? An upright conversion with shelf parts is about $800 for the cooling parts.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

bugguy1967 wrote:
What's the price? An upright conversion with shelf parts is about $800 for the cooling parts.



Not sure if this question was directed to me or not, but:

I bought the fan shroud kit about 2 years ago, $927. Already had the fan/alternator.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? Reply with quote

Wreck wrote:
The first type4 conversion I had back in the late eighties had a factory VW 200mm clutch . Quite a rare item I’d guess .


Yes, in production cars, I believe it was a one year only thing, 1968-1969 1700 engines in the 411. I believe they fell by the wayside when Djet replaced dual carbed engines in ‘69. Variants also were used on some 127 industrial engines. Not many factory 200mm clutches here in the US.
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