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Avi750 Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2020 Posts: 30 Location: Israel
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:45 pm Post subject: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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Hi all
I got a T4 case (I assume it's type 4, the num on it is: S112... 004 101 102A... with 100mm hole diameter for the cylinder)
So the question is, how can I fit this engine to my 73' Ghia?
I didn't stated the building of the engine yet, so all recommendations are welcome
Appreciate your help
Avi |
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infiniteLoop Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2020 Posts: 265 Location: Empire State
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:49 am Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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http://www.sharpbuilt.com.au/sharpbuilt1/page11.htm
This is the most affordable kit you can get . you just need to be a little patient as I think the kits may be made to order. Also check the samba classifieds .
If you have fair fabrication skills you can make the upper cylinder tins by cutting and joining #1 to #3 , so you need 2 sets of upper tins. then make a mount for the alternator . This is called the Cali method , named after Joe Cali AKA Nextgen who wrote the manual on how to convert the engine to upright. Nextgen may chime in to say if the manual is still available .
Both rear type 1 tins can be cut down to fit the type 4 . the same with the front tin .
I made my own kit . If you can use fibreglass it is not that difficult just time consuming .
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jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3804 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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That’s amazing!
For some reason I thought there were body mods involved. _________________ Volkswagen!
Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.
“Let he that is without oil throw the first rod”
(Compression 8.7:1) |
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APPLEGREENVW Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2003 Posts: 2379 Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:17 am Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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APPLEGREENVW wrote: |
When ordering parts from sharpbuilt, do you call in the your parts order? or can you do it by email ? |
I don't know Mike personally but I would guess email if outside Australia would be the best form of contact , I did hear through the local grapevine that he can be a little hard to get in contact with .
Prices in 2015 were $295 AUD for the cylinders covers upper and lower I think . And $185 AUD for the alternator stand and oil filter with alloy cap . |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:23 am Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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jeffrey8164 wrote: |
That’s amazing!
For some reason I thought there were body mods involved. |
The type 4 is slightly longer but narrower than a type 1 . It makes spark plug changes a simple affair particularly with VW heads not the 2lt 914 or 912 heads
the 1700 and 1800 bus flywheels will fit in a late bug trans , just need to move the spigot bearing from the crank to the flywheel . But the best option is using a new conversion 200mm flywheel ,(better selection of clutches) |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:27 am Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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Avi750 wrote: |
Hi all
I got a T4 case (I assume it's type 4, the num on it is: S112... 004 101 102A... |
The Type 4 case number will be stamped one of two places. Rear engine models (411, 412, and detuned Type 4 engines for busses) will be stamped at the base of the breather chimney. Mid engine models (914) are stamped above the #3 cylinder opening near the bellhousing mating flange.
Avi750 wrote: |
...with 100mm hole diameter for the cylinder) |
That is the stock size for a T4 case, and fits stock sized pistons/cylinders (87.5, 90, 93, and 94mm) as well as the first oversize bore of 96mm... 96mm cylinders are the same dimensions as 93/94mm cylinders, just with a larger bore for aftermarket pistons.
Avi750 wrote: |
So the question is, how can I fit this engine to my 73' Ghia?
I didn't stated the building of the engine yet, so all recommendations are welcome
Appreciate your help
Avi |
The amount of work and extra parts you need depends on engine. Particularly the flywheel. There were different sizes and types. The 411/412/bus 110 and 115mm flywheels/pressure plates from 1.7 and 1.8 engines will normally slip in a 12V Type 1 transmission with no issues. The 228mm flywheel/pressure plate needs a little bit of material ground off the bellhousing behind the starter motor for the pressure plate to clear. All of these flywheels need the pilot bearing moved in order to fully support the input shaft of the transmission. The
Pilot bearing was pressed into the crankshaft, and needs to be relocated to the center of the flywheel. This requires the felt ring and steel retainer ring to be removed before the bearing is pressed in. Type 1 input shafts are shorter, that’s why it needs to be moved. If the hole is a bit rusty, it may need to be reemed to fit the bearing. Just for reference, this is where the 914 pilot bearings are located.
The 914 have a different ring gear location moved outboard slightly, which causes issues with the factory starter motor. It can be machined back a few mm to engage well, but the other flywheels are still pretty cheap, and generally clean up well with a fresh grind.
Other than those details, the case bolts right up. Then you just need to decide what cooling system you want to convert to. Look into the conversion manual by Nextgen if you have basic fabrication skills. It uses a combo of common T1 and T4 parts, cutting, and some welding. A more turn key kit is a Raby DTM. I wouldn’t use anything with a 911 fan... not a great set up if you value even running temps between cylinders. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021
Last edited by Vanapplebomb on Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:35 am Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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Wreck wrote: |
But the best option is using a new conversion 200mm flywheel ,(better selection of clutches) |
Everyone has their preferences, but I disagree on this one. With a 200mm clutch, you do need more options, because a higher performance engine is going to need a stronger pressure plate than stock. The factory T4 clutches, although limited options, have a lot more holding power than the Type 1 clutches. Even the 210mm T4 clutch. I would loosely equate the factory 210 holding power with a stage two aftermarket 200 pressure plate, and without the heavier pedal pressure.
If he has a 228mm or 914 flywheel, and needs another flywheel anyways, then yeah, I would consider the aftermarket 200 flywheels. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Wreck wrote: |
But the best option is using a new conversion 200mm flywheel ,(better selection of clutches) |
Everyone has their preferences, but I disagree on this one. With a 200mm clutch, you do need more options, because a higher performance engine is going to need a stronger pressure plate than stock. The factory T4 clutches, although limited options, have a lot more holding power than the Type 1 clutches. Even the 210mm T4 clutch. I would loosely equate the factory 210 holding power with a stage two aftermarket 200 pressure plate, and without the heavier pedal pressure.
If he has a 228mm or 914 flywheel, and needs another flywheel anyways, then yeah, I would consider the aftermarket 200 flywheels. |
I've just gone down a learning curve on this very subject , I started with a 215mm Sachs , thinking that a light Ghia shouldn't have an issue . 170 WHP , fine on the street , but did not like high RPM starts on a prepped strip . No one makes a HD clutch for the 215mm bus . I had a custom clutch made locally , it had a very heavy copper multi pad disc . That then caused shift issues and premature synco wear . Now changed to a 200mm set up with a stage 2 Kennedy and exedy disc . I can now change to a better disc or pressure plate if needed . |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7183 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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Have to agree with Wreck on this one.
A stock 210 mm Type 4 clutch will hold 130-135 hp and 195-200 Nm max.
A stock 215 mm Type 4 clutch will handle 135-140 hp and 210 Nm.
A stock 228 mm Type 4 bus clutch will hold around 210 hp and 270 Nm.
Use a disc with more grip (At least the ones that are readily for sale) will increase holding torque marginally. They can perhaps save the day if youre right on the borderline with a stock disc.
Edit: These are max values, especially on the torque. Over time I have seen several older German built 2,4´s with just a 215 mm clutch and a HD disc. Some of them were over 160 hp, but they were typically rather gutless due to the often used Schleicher cams and way loo large intake ports for the power. They were rpm engines.
Henning.de makes HD 215 mm clutches that along with their disc will hold 250 Nm torque. But they are pricey, even for us, so the overseas guys will blink once or twice before they charge the credit card. For them it will make more sense to buy an aftermarket 200 mm flywheel and use regular type 1 clutch stuff.
3 years ago or so, I built a 135 hp 190 Nm 1914 for a buggy. It had a 215 mm bus clutch. It went fine. No problems. The year after the guy swopped exhaust to a better version, played a little with the carbs and got a Black box ignition installed. These things together gave the engine another 5 hp and 5 Nm more torque, but over a 250 rpm wider rpm range. That was too much for the clutch. Now everything above 2nd gear was a no go on WOT. Its that close. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993
Last edited by Alstrup on Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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Alstrup,
that was a great 4 lines of information, I guess when you want power to the ground the clutch is an item I have over looked.
Not that in my engines case
I am sure you know this. When T-4 conversions were the early stages of life, and t-4 performance parts were made on an individual basis, guys would use performance T-1 Discs, a bit smaller in diameter but they worked for their needs. _________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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The first type4 conversion I had back in the late eighties had a factory VW 200mm clutch . Quite a rare item I’d guess . |
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APPLEGREENVW Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2003 Posts: 2379 Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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Wreck wrote: |
APPLEGREENVW wrote: |
When ordering parts from sharpbuilt, do you call in the your parts order? or can you do it by email ? |
I don't know Mike personally but I would guess email if outside Australia would be the best form of contact , I did hear through the local grapevine that he can be a little hard to get in contact with .
Prices in 2015 were $295 AUD for the cylinders covers upper and lower I think . And $185 AUD for the alternator stand and oil filter with alloy cap . |
Which e/mail did you use to order parts? I wished sharpbuilt would have a better website, to order online parts from. _________________ Parts for sale https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=APPLEGREENVW
02/76 Beetle sedan |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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[email protected] is the one I used . |
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NoDents Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2017 Posts: 438 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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I purchased a Sharpbuilt complete fan shroud and front & rear tin replacements (all fiberglass).
Type 4 Stroker. I ended up widening the engine compartment sheet metal to allow the manifolds to clear. I have Porsche heads. Not sure if VW heads would clear OK without widening.
Also needed to cut down the "chimney" to lower the fan (fan from 911). _________________ No Dents
1963 Bug - Sold in 1980
1966 Karmann Ghia Convertible - Stolen in 1988
1971 Karmann Ghia Convertible, resto/mod COMPLETED 10/2020 |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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What's the price? An upright conversion with shelf parts is about $800 for the cooling parts. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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NoDents Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2017 Posts: 438 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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bugguy1967 wrote: |
What's the price? An upright conversion with shelf parts is about $800 for the cooling parts. |
Not sure if this question was directed to me or not, but:
I bought the fan shroud kit about 2 years ago, $927. Already had the fan/alternator. _________________ No Dents
1963 Bug - Sold in 1980
1966 Karmann Ghia Convertible - Stolen in 1988
1971 Karmann Ghia Convertible, resto/mod COMPLETED 10/2020 |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: How can I install T4 engine on Ghia? |
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Wreck wrote: |
The first type4 conversion I had back in the late eighties had a factory VW 200mm clutch . Quite a rare item I’d guess . |
Yes, in production cars, I believe it was a one year only thing, 1968-1969 1700 engines in the 411. I believe they fell by the wayside when Djet replaced dual carbed engines in ‘69. Variants also were used on some 127 industrial engines. Not many factory 200mm clutches here in the US. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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