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Joliver5 Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2016 Posts: 36 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:02 pm Post subject: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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So I have a 73 square and I am working on getting it to be my daily driver. I just got new LED's for the tail lights but now the Fuse relay for the turn signals went bad. I got a new one that I thought would work from Advance Auto (12.8V) and I am wondering if it won't work. The og relay started buzzing and died. A mechanic suggested I check all the grounds. Any ideas? |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13270 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Cables |
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My knowledge about LED lights is pretty limited, but I do know with some cars, you have to use a relay meant for LED lights and/or add resistors in order to get the lights to blink and not cause problems
On new new cars, LED lights can throw error codes and cause a lot of problems. You should tak to someone that knows LED and change the title of the post _________________ Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69809 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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I'm not sure about a '73 but Erik is correct - a lot of LED bulb require you to upgrade to a solid state (modern) turn signal relay.
Is that what you bought?
The original relays worked in a way where the resistance of the bulb helped them turn on/off. LEDs don't have that resistance.
If the bulbs no longer flash this may be the issue.
Usually if there is a grounding problem with one of bulbs, the original turn signals would flash faster because that bulb wasn't providing the resistance needed to make the turn signals flash at a normal speed. _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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I've got LEDs for turn, brake, dash and interior lights. You will have to swap out the old style resistance relay for an electronic relay to get the LEDs to work properly.
A 73 should have a commonly used relay so finding its electronic equivalent should be relatively easy. |
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Joliver5 Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2016 Posts: 36 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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Could I ask do you have a link to the ones you got? |
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W1K1 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004 Posts: 4919 Location: Southern AB
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34003 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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ataraxia wrote: |
I've got LEDs for turn, brake, dash and interior lights. You will have to swap out the old style resistance relay for an electronic relay to get the LEDs to work properly.
A 73 should have a commonly used relay so finding its electronic equivalent should be relatively easy. |
I put an electronic relay on my '71, though I'm not sure the '73 uses the same one. It was a Tridon EP-35. |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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Joliver5 wrote: |
Could I ask do you have a link to the ones you got? |
Just match the one you have now with an electronic one - I don't remember what it was specifically. They're easy to find. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34003 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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Bringing this up again, as I have an LED issue.
To lighten the load on my generator (now with its spiffy new electronic regulator), I swapped out all exterior bulbs for LEDs. This also was meant to deal with the turn signals "on" part of the cycle being a bit short as the bulb filaments heated up. This, despite using an electronic relay in place of the original unit. I had previously changed the dash warning bulbs to LEDs with no ill effect.
But now, with the LED external turn bulbs, they shine brighter of course, and also have a desired longer "on" time since they come on instantly. The on-off interval is about the same as far as the relay clicks are concerned. It's the "instant on" of the LEDs that makes them more noticeable to traffic. Success!
However, my green dash lights do not flash. They come on with the 4-ways, but not with the turn signals. If I look closely, they come on VERY dimly, but you wouldn't notice unless you looked for it. As I said, the relay flashes to the same beat, but the pair of green dash lights do not come on.
I am guessing that the load is TOO light, even for the electronic flasher. With both sides (4-way flashers), it's enough load, but with only one side (turn signal) it is not. Speculation, but what else could it be? I am loath to add a resistor, since the lower current was one of the reasons I went to LED.
Anyone else seen this? |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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Which flasher unit are you using? Electronic flashers have no minimum load and adding a resister won't help...
My front, side marker, rear lamps and dash bulbs are all LED. I haven't had any issues with my LED turn indicators with an electronic flasher.
Not much help toward resolving your problem, unfortunately... |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34003 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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ataraxia wrote: |
Which flasher unit are you using? Electronic flashers have no minimum load and adding a resister won't help... |
Tridon EP-35
Anyone successfully using a different electronic unit?
Weird that it works fine with the 4-ways, but not the turn signals. On the '71 the same relay works both. That's why I wondered if even this electronic relay has a lower load limit.
One more thing to check first. My right front lamp assembly has both the side marker and running/turn bulbs. The latter works fine, but even with a new bulb my right front parking lamp does not work. I'll remove the assembly and check grounds and contacts. It is maybe possible that is hanging something up. I doubt it, since that should only mess up the right turn signal; but since the parking lamps share a circuit, there may be something shorting or open there. |
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knewknew Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 217 Location: Alexandria, VA
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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KTPhil wrote: |
Anyone else seen this? |
You just described the exact same issue that I am currently experiencing. Did you ever find a solution?
I recently wrote to the owner of 'Classic Car LEDs' and he replied with the following:
"Many VW's use a switched negative for the blinker indicator lamp rather than the switched live required for LEDs. You may wish to re-wire the lamp to run directly from the P tab on our flasher relay and then to earth (ground) which may solve the issue? If not, you are likely to be suffering voltage drop somewhere in the system that may cause this issue?"
Here is the schematic that came with his kit:
I am not sure what he is referring to with: 'switched negative', but could that be the culprit?
I already had mine wired with the gauge bulbs connected to the 'P' terminal he mentioned.
In my attempts to solve the issue, I also tried a different led relay, which happened to have terminals labeled the same as the original (31, K, 49, 49a) and it still unfortunately did not solve the issue. _________________ 1970 Squareback |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34003 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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He's off base, at least with regards to the later turn/4-way flashers. With the 4-ways sharing that same relay through a complex switch, it isn't as easy as just switching the relay contacts around. On an older car without 4-way flashers, this may work, though.
His comment about voltage drops is also not the case for me... since it works fine with an incandescent dash indicator bulb. But it does hint that there may still be a current minimum for that relay.
I just live with it. The clicking and self-canceling make it work fine in actual driving.
Last edited by KTPhil on Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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knewknew Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 217 Location: Alexandria, VA
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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Another reply from Classic LEDs. Just thought it may be useful...
"The standard VW wiring has the warning light powered from the exterior circuit and uses a switched negative. For the lamp to work with the LEDs and flasher relay supplied, the warning lamp needs to be powered directly from the P tab on the flasher unit and then grounded the other side." _________________ 1970 Squareback |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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The little lights in the dash cluster are supposed to be reverse polarity bulbs - I use the LEDs from Star LED and they work fine.
Everywhere else - I am using regular LED bulbs without issue. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34003 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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ataraxia wrote: |
The little lights in the dash cluster are supposed to be reverse polarity bulbs - I use the LEDs from Star LED and they work fine.
Everywhere else - I am using regular LED bulbs without issue. |
Got a link for the turn signal dash bulb? |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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http://auto-hub.com/type-3/
It doesn't appear that they differentiate them anymore - maybe they work on either polarity now since they work on both 6 and 12 volt. They used to be separate products. Or maybe they just ship them without explicitly stating that they're reverse polarity? The order form is different from when I ordered them years ago.
Ahhh, technology... |
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knewknew Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 217 Location: Alexandria, VA
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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I sent one last email to the seller and inquired about using reverse polarity LED BA7's in the cluster.
He replied:
"It's not a polarity issue but a feed issue so changing the LED for one with different polarity would make no difference.
Our electronic relays will drive LED and filament lamps equally well assuming the switching is correct.' _________________ 1970 Squareback |
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pitargue Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006 Posts: 232
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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ataraxia wrote: |
http://auto-hub.com/type-3/
It doesn't appear that they differentiate them anymore - maybe they work on either polarity now since they work on both 6 and 12 volt. They used to be separate products. Or maybe they just ship them without explicitly stating that they're reverse polarity? The order form is different from when I ordered them years ago.
Ahhh, technology... |
I also ordered dash bulbs from here last year. Except for the very slow response probably due to covid for a missing bulb, the dash bulbs works fine. (Finally received the missing bulb.)
I changed out all my exterior bulbs except for the turn signal bulbs from https://www.superbrightleds.com/. They also work fine. I just didn't want to deal with the relay thing for the turn signals for now.
BTW, I also bought some LED H4 bulbs. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TQLK6SH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1. They seem to be fine. But some have opined that a white headlight really goes against "classic" cars. I can see that point of view... |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay and LEDs |
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pitargue wrote: |
ataraxia wrote: |
http://auto-hub.com/type-3/
It doesn't appear that they differentiate them anymore - maybe they work on either polarity now since they work on both 6 and 12 volt. They used to be separate products. Or maybe they just ship them without explicitly stating that they're reverse polarity? The order form is different from when I ordered them years ago.
Ahhh, technology... |
I also ordered dash bulbs from here last year. Except for the very slow response probably due to covid for a missing bulb, the dash bulbs works fine. (Finally received the missing bulb.)
I changed out all my exterior bulbs except for the turn signal bulbs from https://www.superbrightleds.com/. They also work fine. I just didn't want to deal with the relay thing for the turn signals for now.
BTW, I also bought some LED H4 bulbs. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TQLK6SH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1. They seem to be fine. But some have opined that a white headlight really goes against "classic" cars. I can see that point of view... |
The relay is the easiest part - get the part number off of your current relay and add "LED" when you Google it. I found mine at a local auto parts store. |
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