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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17121
Location: Retired South Florida
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 Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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I’m surprised that leaking 4 liters of oil in 500 miles wasn’t more obvious. Bummer.
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
| oh my. my heart cries for you (or your transaxle). if you got only 500ml out of it, it was death by starvation. i have no idea what is salvageable but lots of signs of heat stress. i will be so impressed if this is rebuilt! |
Oh, I'm rebuilding. The only part I'm questioning now is the gear carrier.
The only thing I have going for me, I think, is that this all happened in 4th gear. No other gears were used, so they should have had no stress or load through them.....I hope. |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| I’m surprised that leaking 4 liters of oil in 500 miles wasn’t more obvious. Bummer. |
No instrumentation to give warning. So highway. No stop rain to help camouflage it I guess.
Other than visibly seeing it I don't think anyone else would notice before the noise starts. |
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tjet 
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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That's a bummer man.
Let me know if you need that overhaul CD again |
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jordauto
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2011
Posts: 218
Location: Sorrento,BC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| Just wow, those pics are graphic and difficult to look at. You have to wonder how hot everything got in there to burn the gear oil like that. It's always difficult to tell over the internet in a few pics, but I have to wonder if there is heat damage to the shafts and gears. If the gear carrier is otherwise good you could have it steel sleeved in the mainsheet bearing bore. My trans had all of the bearing bores steel sleeved at the previous rebuild. I have a perfect used 4th set from mine if your'e interested but its a stock .85 I think. |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| jordauto wrote: |
| Just wow, those pics are graphic and difficult to look at. You have to wonder how hot everything got in there to burn the gear oil like that. It's always difficult to tell over the internet in a few pics, but I have to wonder if there is heat damage to the shafts and gears. If the gear carrier is otherwise good you could have it steel sleeved in the mainsheet bearing bore. My trans had all of the bearing bores steel sleeved at the previous rebuild. I have a perfect used 4th set from mine if your'e interested but its a stock .85 I think. |
I appreciate the offer. My stock is 0.78 so I'm not sure it would work for me.
I suppose there could be heat damage to the gears but there is not real way to tell. I'm not even sure how hot the shaft. I also don't know the heat treat process for the shaft. The only thing I can think of is all the heat came from the 4th gear. Heat radiated from there. It's a big shaft with a lot of places to dissipate heat. That's what I am hoping at least. When I crawled under the car after it failed the gear box was hot to touch but not boiling water hot. Also the plastic bearing carriers away farther away from that gear show no signs of melting. The ones at that gear are gone.
I look at the bright side. I walked away from this, it could always be worse. I fly big dumb helicopters for a living. A catastrophic transmission failure in one of those is essentially a death sentence. I've had it where a 'chip detector', like the one Sodo is playing with, has gone off 200mi from shore. It's not a fun feeling. In this case I just pulled over on the side of the road and got a free tow. It could have been worse. |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| tjet wrote: |
That's a bummer man.
Let me know if you need that overhaul CD again |
I'm good, I downloaded it all. |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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More pictures. I took the pinion bearing off. It really doesn't look damaged at all. Very hard to see tiny defects on the outer race and lines on the rollers. I don't know if that normally happens or not.
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| The outer lip of the input shaft seal is not what keeps the oil in. The inner lip does that. The outer lip just keeps clutch dust out of the seal and likely sealed when the input shaft was centered by the pilot bearing in the crank. |
That is a good point. Either way I think it was the source of my leak. Everything else is bone dry. Only so many places for a transmission to leak. I distinctly remember you telling me to make sure the oil slinger is not loose the last time I opened it up. I guess it did come loose.
Damage to the input shaft. I can feel it with my fingers. I think it's where that slinger was rubbing into it.
Another thing I noticed is 2 of my exhaust studs are missing on #4 (farthest from the pump?) exhaust side. I reached into the stud hole with a small punch and didn't feel anything in there. There still could be a broken stud, I didn't poke to long or hard. Ever heard of a stud backing off completely? |
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jordauto
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2011
Posts: 218
Location: Sorrento,BC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| In those pics it like some fine debris has gone through the pinion bearing. I would just replace it as it handles so much load and is critical for the life of the R&P. |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| old_man wrote: |
Damage to the input shaft. I can feel it with my fingers. I think it's where that slinger was rubbing into it.
Another thing I noticed is 2 of my exhaust studs are missing on #4 (farthest from the pump?) exhaust side. I reached into the stud hole with a small punch and didn't feel anything in there. There still could be a broken stud, I didn't poke to long or hard. Ever heard of a stud backing off completely? |
Did you install a pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft? Is it in good condition?
The exhaust studs will sometimes come loose and back out from vibration. It does not typically happen if the correct stock mounting hardware is used and it is appropriately supported. Do you have the correct thick washers/spacers on the exhaust manifold? I don't recall which manifold setup you are using. Is it braced back to the block in some manner? |
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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Just a quick side note, I've been overfilling my original syncro trans for over 4 years now. I'm not saying everyone should do this, and I'm not an expert, but on my last 3 trans flushes I had very little fuzz on the magnet. So, it's been working out good with me. I flush out the trans yearly or 25k miles. I also top it off (overfill) every oil change. The only issue is that the Swepco 201 makes it difficult to shift in the sub 50 deg temps. Once warmed up, its fine.
I can usually get in an extra quart or so when I raise the nose. The oil is high enough to leak out of the side seals (next on my list to fix) |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
Did you install a pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft? Is it in good condition?
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Brand new when I put it all back in. Part no. "NATIONAL FC65354". I have no idea the current condition, clutch is still in place.
| ?Waldo? wrote: |
The exhaust studs will sometimes come loose and back out from vibration. It does not typically happen if the correct stock mounting hardware is used and it is appropriately supported. Do you have the correct thick washers/spacers on the exhaust manifold? I don't recall which manifold setup you are using. Is it braced back to the block in some manner? |
Stock 1.6TD manifold. Copper coated flared nuts as well as those stupid expensive thick washers. I have the factory turbo support brace on there as well. I will check to see if I have it set up correctly. I remember I had to change it a little for that AFN engine I ran (for all of 10 min). That engine block was very different. |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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Out of curiosity, how does this thing stay in place?
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17121
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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Unmolested it’s a press fit.
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| Unmolested it’s a press fit. |
And now that both it and the housing have been seriously molested? Epoxy? Do they make slightly oversized ones? |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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I've never seen one cracked like that. Weird.
Yes, they make oversize ones:
https://www.vwbulliparts.de/vw-t3-wellenbuchse-kupplungsglocke-1mm-groesser.htm
Depending on how much material has been lost, you may need more than 1mm extra. You can peen the bell housing to displace metal enough to get a press fit again. Along with epoxy that can work.
I would definitely pull the clutch and inspect the pilot bearing. |
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AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2329
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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All I can say is, Wow!
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1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
I've never seen one cracked like that. Weird.
Yes, they make oversize ones:
https://www.vwbulliparts.de/vw-t3-wellenbuchse-kupplungsglocke-1mm-groesser.htm
Depending on how much material has been lost, you may need more than 1mm extra. You can peen the bell housing to displace metal enough to get a press fit again. Along with epoxy that can work.
I would definitely pull the clutch and inspect the pilot bearing. |
Unfortunately out of stock on the larger one. Do you know the name of this part or the part number? I can't find it on any parts diagram. |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1381
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) |
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Well things got more interesting. I took the clutch/flywheel off.
This is a DMF. There appears to be a lot of free play in it. I don't remember it being that much. Can any one confirm there is suppose to be this much free play in it? Note the black marker line at the 3 o-clock position. There is a bit of free play but when you force it a bit more it moves and stays, no spring back.
This is the back of the flywheel. Weird wear marks.
Here is the same on the crank end.
Speaking of which, anyone notice anything missing?
Doesn't look like I ever installed a pilot bearing. What a dumb costly mistake. I'm not quite sure how that happened as I ordered one, I even have the receipt for it.
Here is what I think happened.
1) I never installed a pilot bearing.
2) I drove for a while and nothing went wrong
3) I developed an oil leak at the RMS or the pressure sensor above that somehow killed the DMF
4) As the DMF was dying it would vibrate when accelerating hard in 4th.
5) The vibration shook the input shaft due to lack of pilot bearing
6) This caused the input seal and slinger thing to be compromised.
7) All the oil leaked, transmission died.
 ' The end.
Does that seem plausible?
Hard to tell but there is transmission fluid dripping from that bolt holding on that backing plate.
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