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Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic
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Cees Klumper
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Thanks Ray, this morning switched my order to the parts you linked to at NAPA. Picking up later today. Went for another drive last night and it's really a pleasure now, as it drives like a more modern car and definitely keeps up with all the Long Beach traffic (you know, mostly SUVs, pickup trucks but BIG ones, and all the sedans that look the same...)

A pic I just made of the car waiting to do grocery run duty:

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And one I thought I would post, that I actually found on this forum, of a previous owner who rebuilt the engine, back in I think 2015 or a bit earlier than that:

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Cees Klumper
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Spent the better part of today in Type 4 Heaven, in Los Angeles, getting a rustfree hood and 4 decent light fixtures, front and rear (mine were in various stages of decay and disfunction). Mission accomplished, shot a short video of the goings-on there today (another Type 4 being readied for re-commissioning). We must have had the majority of Southern California's surviving Type 4s in attendance today ...

https://youtu.be/5qMJtoBKSkc
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Cees Klumper
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Some progress to report. I repaired rust on the passenger rear side, just below the rearmost window. The famous expanding foam that I think Volkswagen injected back there between the inner and outer structure, managed to eat up a large-ish section of metal. Same on the driver's side, which I started to tackle this afternoon.
Anyways, I cut out the rot, fabricated and welded in 5 new metal sections, and painted it all before fitting the NOS rear fender. Which this morning I spray painted on the inside with a rust preventer, that 'Silver' stuff I read about on another thread. This was the first time I spray painted anything using a proper paint gun and compressor. It went fine after I thinned the paint a bit (it was quite thick from the jar).


After completing the passenger side, I went to remove the driver's side rear fender, but ran into difficulties removing the chrome trim from the bottom of the fender. Four of the five little nuts that hold it in place were not budging. So I made a 'special tool': cut a slot into an old screwdriver, then welded a nut that fits inside the little nuts onto the remains. See photo. Worked like a charm and will help with the re-installation. I think a PO put the little nuts on backwards, with the hollow side outward, when I think it's supposed to be the other way around.

Making good progress, I ordered the 'Shantung Yellow' paint last Monday from TCP Global in San Diego, so hoping it will arrive in a couple of days. I still have some smaller rust repairs to do, after which it willbe time for the new paint.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Nice!

Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

It’s coming along nicely! If you are looking for new upper side trim contact Alex Pegado at ISPWest. He had 6 pieces made for me and made 3 extra sets...for the wagon. Got mine and they are beautiful.

Bill
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Cees Klumper
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Thanks for that tip, and just around the corner from me as well.
I could tell someone had plugged up small holes in the rear fenders and presumed it was for trim, did not realize the car is supposed to have it along the entire side! Will check it out.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Cees Klumper wrote:
Thanks for that tip, and just around the corner from me as well.
I could tell someone had plugged up small holes in the rear fenders and presumed it was for trim, did not realize the car is supposed to have it along the entire side! Will check it out.


Personally......I get rid of the trim. Not because its not nice looking and is "some" protection from door edge dents.....but because the plastic clips leak even when new when the litte gaskets are still new.....and are responsible for a ton of rust.

I plan to solder or spot weld the holes shut and replace the trim with molded urethane or acrylic urethane copies of the metal strips.....hold them on with 3M 486 adhesive and paint them black.
Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

I have to say when I took my fenders off all the original clips were in place with the red seals. There was no rust anywhere... even on the lower rocker trim with the larger clips. It all comes down to how the panels were prepared and painted. If you have adequate prep and no chips, it can’t rust. Personally I enjoy the stock dress.

Bill
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Cees Klumper
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Today I tackled the driver's side rear below-the-window-rust. Again, inside and out large sections rotted away, only sort of held in place by that expanding foam that was injected in between the inner and outer sheet metal. See some during and after pictures. It's for sure not perfect, but is tons better than it was, and once painted it will be invisible. Sort of 90% of the result for 20% of the effort. I am definitely an amateur, did not know how to weld or do any bodywork until about 7 months ago. This is only my second car I am repairing rust on.

After that was all done, I put the fender back on, re-installed the lights and re-connected the battery, and took it for a spin. It drives really well now. A few small rust areas left to do, while I wait for the paint to arrive. Will also rig up a paint booth in the garage (already have the fan and filters, just need to pull together an enclosed box inside the garage to create positive air pressure with.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
I have to say when I took my fenders off all the original clips were in place with the red seals. There was no rust anywhere... even on the lower rocker trim with the larger clips. It all comes down to how the panels were prepared and painted. If you have adequate prep and no chips, it can’t rust. Personally I enjoy the stock dress.

Bill


You got lucky.

The rust....is on the inside typically. It depends on where you live and what the weather is.

The trim is not sealed to the body. It collects all kinds of crud behind the trim. In two and four doors...and somewhat in wagons....the trim holes leak. Thw water and crud get inside doors and down in the areas that are the 3/4 panel area to the rear of the drivers and passenger doors.

If you have the right weather...these areas stay wet. They rust.

Same clips on Mk1 and mk2 golf , jetta and other cars...same issue.

Part of it also depends on how good the trim is and how much teh body panels flex.....and how hot it gets. The sealing washers shrink in hot weather. After a decade or so....they leak like crazy.

If you know better...you can buy a bag and replace them every 7-10 years. But....I'm not into replacing things that are just ok....or not good enough on these cars. Its hard enough to keep them alive. I dont need a rust problem every decade. If you can keep an eye on them...they will be fine....mostly.

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Looks good. There is a paint booth rental place close to you near where the 710 and 5 meet. I painted my Vanagon there last year. I think it was about $100. You go there and mask off in the morning and paint in the afternoon. Leave car overnight and pick up in the morning. Cheap way to not deal with the plastic sheets and mess of over spray in the garage. Plus there is a shop there in case you run out of supplies.

Cliff and I got the blue 412 running today. Brake pedal was frozen with rust but it could be on the road soon.
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Cees Klumper
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Thanks for that tip James, I didn't think of checking paint booth rentals, at a price like that it's definitely a great option.

Great to hear the blue car is getting close! It's overall in nice condition. Let me know if I can help.

Yesterday at the gas station a guy on a motorcycle approached me and I gave him Cliff's # as he is in need of some T4 parts. The car gets lots of attention everywhere I take it (or, rather, it takes me). A lady in the Trader Joe's parking lot said her friend had a yellow one she called Sunny. Most everyone had or knew someone who had one at one point. A guy stopped next to me to tell me he drove one into the ocean once. When I asked why, he just said "Drunk! 16! The police came but luckily it wasn't my car!"

No paint in sight yet, but there's plenty to do still.
Yesterday I used that decelleration valve to tweak the idle some. I read in one of my workshop manuals that on the '71 automatics, that is one of its functions. It was idling quite low - never stalling, but shakingly low. Now nice and smooth.

Have to still install the new engine-to-body seal. Pieces of the old one keep falling off.
Something else that fell off yesterday evening was a rear hubcap, as I went around a corner from a stop. Found the hubcap quickly, but the trim ring behind it made a break for the Mexican border! Found it eventually though.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Cees Klumper wrote:
Thanks for that tip James, I didn't think of checking paint booth rentals, at a price like that it's definitely a great option.

Great to hear the blue car is getting close! It's overall in nice condition. Let me know if I can help.

Yesterday at the gas station a guy on a motorcycle approached me and I gave him Cliff's # as he is in need of some T4 parts. The car gets lots of attention everywhere I take it (or, rather, it takes me). A lady in the Trader Joe's parking lot said her friend had a yellow one she called Sunny. Most everyone had or knew someone who had one at one point. A guy stopped next to me to tell me he drove one into the ocean once. When I asked why, he just said "Drunk! 16! The police came but luckily it wasn't my car!"

No paint in sight yet, but there's plenty to do still.
Yesterday I used that decelleration valve to tweak the idle some. I read in one of my workshop manuals that on the '71 automatics, that is one of its functions. It was idling quite low - never stalling, but shakingly low. Now nice and smooth.

Have to still install the new engine-to-body seal. Pieces of the old one keep falling off.
Something else that fell off yesterday evening was a rear hubcap, as I went around a corner from a stop. Found the hubcap quickly, but the trim ring behind it made a break for the Mexican border! Found it eventually though.


Ok....couple of items:

As nice as trim ring look...they are the cause of hubcaps falling off. They prevent proper seating on some wheels. Wink

Ok....the deceleration valve you are speaking of. Is this the one that bears on the throttle body lever and is attached to the TB with a bracket?

That is not a deceleration valve. Its typically spoken of as the "throttle pusher". Its purpose is ONLY to operate when you come to a full stop. When you come to a stop it takes a second or so for internal hydraulic pressure in the torque converter to drop enough to allow the converter to "decouple" from the engine. This can drag down idle to almost stall point.

This causes an oscillation because that excessive rpm drop....drops vacuum. The drop in vacuum produces a rich spike via the MPS. You get this back and forth oscillation in rpm and load. The pusher senses vacuum drop and kicks the throttle open....maybe 0.010" just for a second....to maintain the rpm for a second.....and to DELAY.....the TVS from going into full park mode.

The thing the books do not explain.....along with a reaaly accurate method for adjusting the TVS.....is that unless your TVS is PERFECTLY adjusted....its very hard to properly adjust the throttle pusher. To add to this mess.....if your baseline fuel mixture set at the MPS is not at least factory nominal in adjustment.....it makes the function of both TVS and throttle pusher......kind of messed up.

Just saying be careful in adjusting the throttle pusher. Be sure that the idle issue at stop you are trying to correct.....is due to the throttle pusher needing to be adjusted....and not because of either the TVS or baseline fuel mixture being off.

The automatic transmission along with its throttle pusher and its electronic decel valve and its modulator valve......and the associated issues you get with long term wear to engine and resulting vacuum signature changes.....are one of the most problematic "smooth running" issues with 411 and 412.

One thing I "think" could fix a lot of this.....and I have not run this myself but others have.....is to get a torque converter from an 010 transmission from a bus. It has a higher rpm stall or lock up point. Meaning......it would allow you to rev a little higher getting off the line. This would potemtially mean smoother more powertul starts....AND....better idle tuning.... because the engine could easioy be idled higher....say 900+.....without creep....and would be already into the start of centrifugal advance. And.....vacuum advance would be less critical. Vacuum retard would probably not be necessary.......and......when coming to a stop....the torque converter "should" decouple sooner and the throttle kicker should not be needed.

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Yes, these “throttle pushers” were problematic to get right. When the car was new it all behaved really well. The problem is after things start wearing it would want to osscilate the idle. This was a fairly common occurance on the automatics. Just so many places for vacuum leaks to develope. The system has to be tight and leak free. As Ray mentioned there were other contributing factors also. Not easy to get right on an old vehicle.

Bill
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
Yes, these “throttle pushers” were problematic to get right. When the car was new it all behaved really well. The problem is after things start wearing it would want to osscilate the idle. This was a fairly common occurance on the automatics. Just so many places for vacuum leaks to develope. The system has to be tight and leak free. As Ray mentioned there were other contributing factors also. Not easy to get right on an old vehicle.

Bill


Yep.....the throttle kicker is one of the few aboslutely maddening parts of the automatic cars. And.....as one would expect.....once you get it dialed in (or you think you have it dialed in).....and the weather changes.....which means temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure changes.....which means air density and fuel mixture changes.......it can run like crap again!

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Thank you gentlemen - I did adjust the 'pusher' a just bit yesterday and, while tooling around town today, it worked well - idle now fine, car no longer shaking, and other running characteristics (decelleration, upshifting when coming to stop, getting off the line from a stop etc) all seem unaffected.
I tried adjusting the idle through the air screw on the throttle body, but that made no discernable difference. I wonder if it is plugged up, although when I had it off I did clean it some. Maybe I should try again, it's just that that plastic intake runner/boot is already a bit cracked and so I try to leave it alone.
I can affect the idle by changing the ignition timing, but then it won't be as per the factory, so that seems not a good option.
If I introduce some false air into the intake manifold, the idle goes up quite a bit - so it seems the mixture is a bit rich at idle.
Will keep my eye (and ear) on the running characteristics.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

I'm no Type 4 engine expert, but I read the stock PCV/breather setup is "leaky" and might be controlling your idle air, making adjustments seem random or ineffective.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:14 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
I'm no Type 4 engine expert, but I read the stock PCV/breather setup is "leaky" and might be controlling your idle air, making adjustments seem random or ineffective.


Yes....this is correct. Its a problem on the 411/412/914 cars with 1.7L.

I cant remember if I have mentioned it or not in this thread. They have two main issues:

1. They wear out internally and leak air/crankcase to the manifold constantly
Or.....
2. Even when working properly, if you have a lot of case gassses.....the PCV dumps right in next to the MPS vacuum intake causing a rich/lean spike.


It sounds like the throttle kicker adjustment is pretty much spot on.....if it solves the problem but changes nothing else.

As far as idle adjustment goes.....if backing the screw out further thsn it is....does not increase idle.....it may simply be that the screw is maxed out. It can only bypass so much air short of pulling the screw all the way out.

If you introduce false air into the manifold.....it will automatically start running richer....even if it was not already......if you try to do so with the TB so be careful how you do that. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Check a couple of things on the throttle body. Could be the idle screw is simply plugged with grease and dirt. Also there is a conical shaped gasket between the TB and intake manifold. They can leak or be completely missing. Both these things require removing the TB to really get a good look at it.

Bill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
Check a couple of things on the throttle body. Could be the idle screw is simply plugged with grease and dirt. Also there is a conical shaped gasket between the TB and intake manifold. They can leak or be completely missing. Both these things require removing the TB to really get a good look at it.

Bill


Both true.

The gasket....is a problem. They all leak with age. They are no longer available. Part # 022 133 073.

But you can use a bus TB seal its an even better seal 022 133 073A....if you can find one. Everywhere I can see they are out of stock

https://www.buslab.com/product-p/022133073a.htm

https://airheadparts.com/vw-part/fi-throttle-body-seal-l-jet-digijet-022-133-073-a/

You can take the one you get out of the car...clean it very well with mineral spirits or carb cleaner. Then put a thin complete smear of very good sealant like Permatex Ultra between old seal and TB. Contact the seal

If you have a spare plenum outside of the engine compartment.....bolt the TB to the plenum ...ONLY FINGER TIGHT. You do not want to squeeze out or move the gasket. You want it fully contacted and held in place. Let it dry completely.

Now put sealant on the plenum side of the seal...very thin. Install the seal on your plenum on the engine....again finger tight. Let dry completely and then tighten down.

I have also been able to make a seal out of a 3/16" cross section o-ring that has an ID about 10mm larger than the throttle body opening. Adhere it to the plenum with something like Motoseal or Yamabond.....then a very thin smear of RTV on the TB mating area...bolt up and let dry.

Understand about the idle screw. It is a screw plugging and orifice. Once it moves so far out the orifice is fully uncovered and there is not much controlling the airflow except the orifice diameter.

So in reality in a perfectly tuned engine....even totally removing the screw will not increase idle beyond its maximum with the screw installed but backed all the way out.

Yes....it could be plugged up.....but more often than not....if the idle screw makes no difference...either you already have grossly too much air entering the engine somewhere so the idle screw makes no difference.....or the dead opposite.....you have grossly too much fuel in the mixture so that the small amount of bypass air has no effect. Ray
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