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Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4)
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erste
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Very thorough diagnosis and thanks for posting all the photos. That along with the discussion really helps me understand parts of the trans that I’m clueless about and you’ve at least turned this failure into something educational for others like me.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

It looks like the flywheel was not properly attached to the crankshaft. Something was hung up on assembly or the fasteners stretched.

Experience unfortunately comes at a cost. I would not reuse any of the bearings. That transmission was toasted. I've never seen one that burned up. Spill a qt of water on the shop floor and you'll understand why I can't believe you lost 3 quarts of the stinkiest fluid on earth out the input shaft and it wasn't noticed. If you missed the pilot bearing, is it possible you didn't fill it too? Sodo must be traveling. This is right up his alley. Again, sorry for your loss. I'd be looking for another unit at this point.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Mark, I agree .......... no way the transmission lost "all" of it's oil out thru/by the Input Shaft Seal (or even 50% of the oil in such a short time/distance).

And, neither would I re-use any bearing in that transmission. I'd say the brass synchro-rings are worn beyond spec. After taking a second look at the pics, it appears the case may be damaged as well.

I've seen the inside of a lot of 002 and 091 transmissions in bad shape, but nothing like this one.

500 ml of oil is slightly over a half US Quart (16.9 ounces). Again, I find it very difficult to imagine that over 3 quarts of oil were pushed out via the Input Shaft seal whether it was in 500 miles or a 1,000.

My guess is that the DMF is just fine ...
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Sodo is sh*tting bricks .... that he's getting people to change their gear oil more often....for longevity of our treasured antiques.
And statistically..... more things can go wrong.
The phone rings, disturbing you, and you forget something....
And all this effort to squeeze more miles out of the trans goes down the sh*thole.
Like if the best maintained trans in the world burns up in a fuel line fire, or got stolen by a drug addict.

This is painful to watch, so very sorry old_man!!! 😭😭😭

=========

Syncro trannies have some monkeybusiness where it holds back 1.5 qt, which can confuse you.
I found that my trans has only 3 quarts in it, for perhaps 8,000 miles. But I have a temperature gauge, and I know it never got more than 143°F so I'm pretty sure it was always well-lubricated.
I kinda like the trans temp gauge thing, especially for an over-engined trans.
Now it has 4.5 qts again, for sure.👍🏽👍🏽

======

Weird stuff that the flywheel bolts loosened. They should stretch in and there should be absolutely zero movement between the flywheel and the crank end.
I kinda think you have to re-surface both.
The crank will be very difficult to re-surface.😱

So if there’s no pilot bearing, can the pressure plate clamp onto the friction disc “off-center”?
And then wowie the input shaft wildly with every rotation?
That would be bad, yikes.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

I feel sad about all of this.

I have a new Luk DMF here. The behavior is a bit hard to describe. It has ~1/2" of free play before it meets spring resistance. Going one direction it will spring back to the point of initial resistance. Going the other way once it meets resistance, it will go another ~1/2" and in that space it will stay wherever I stop. After that it meets spring resistance and will spring back. The free play will then be in a different position than when I started. Going back the other way I can push against resistance to move the free play back to where it was. Hopefully that description will make sense to you.

I don't have a part number for the slinger. You might contact Weddle and see if they have them.

I doubt you need to reface the crank or the DMF. Clean the mating surface thoroughly. New flywheel to crank bolts as they are single use. The PP to flywheel bolts do not say they are single use.
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old_man
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies.

Worry not, I don't plan on reusing any of the bearings. I will just order new ones. I will also measure the syncros to see what needs to be replaced. I think the 4th gear one is garbage anyways.

I did fill it with oil. The last time I was filling it with oil was last summer. That was before I went on a 2 day trip towing a car behind me. I find it hard to believe that it could do all that empty. I also find it hard to believe that I would fill it with some oil and not the rest as I did pull 500ml out if it. I also checked the level early in the fall as well. My normal driving routine is a very short drive to work/grocery store/whatever and then back home (town is 5km across). I normally parked indoors and never saw more than drop or two of the black engine oil. Random 1hr trips at which point when parking it would leave behind a small puddle of black stuff.

How fast did the oil leak out. I don't know. Doesn't really matter much anyways. This truck has a engine oil leak that I planned on address when winter was over. I thought it was the RMS. It wouldn't leak oil until it got nice and warm (highway use). Did transmission oil mix with the dark engine oil and get hidden? Sure, easily could happen. I did notice this, the oil pan had a clean streak leading from the transmission all the way back. Normally the oil pan is not clean.

As for the flywheel. Those bolts were in there tight as was the flywheel. They are TTY bolts that I installed as the manufacture's instructions. Just weird wear marks. I'll go check out how much the clutch disk can go off centre for curiosity's sake.

Waldo, thanks for playing with your DMF for me. I think I will go check out mine again. I am tempted to just get a new one. What kind of 'rocking' play do you get if you press alternatively from side to side?

After some internet searching I found 2 places in Europe that sells stock 4th gear set in the 0.78 ratio. Price is roughly equivalent to the Weddle's price. Weddle shows out of stock but I think I will email them anyways. Is the GT straight cut gears worth it to eliminate any thrust issues on the main bearing?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Old Man, Sorry that you have put so much into this and it hasn't worked out. I have gained so much respect for the people on this forum who pour incredible effort into these vehicles, when they could have taken an easier way out. It has helped me be more determined when things go wrong. Thanks for having the balls to say that you might have made a mistake along the way. People like me learn from these situations, even if we are doing much simpler tasks. I'm hoping you are able to get back on the road ASAP.
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old_man
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

I think this video helped me a little. Waldo is this representative of what your new one feels like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm9Csz_wkn8


Last edited by old_man on Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

not a vanagon trans, but an interesting tear down of an overheated 4 speed and the resultant damage. suffer thru or skip the 5 minutes of uncrating! but some good pointers on worn housings, heated gears, AND the GL-5 oil syncro ring corrorsion controversy!


Link

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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
I doubt you need to reface the crank or the DMF.


Recommend getting more opinions on this, keep it on top for awhile.
Everyone knows that perfect is best, that's the easy answer.
The number of folks who know if 'flawed is usable......'and how flawed,,,,is a tiny fraction.
It's the people who have seen flawed, and tried it, got the results and were able to interpret the data.
Many mechanics saw flawed go out the door and it didn't come back.
That's useful anecdotally but not a conclusion.
I kinda think that mating surface is "critical" even moreso when you say the bolts are one-time-use..
It's not just the shear engagement of the bolts (like nails), this is an engineered torque and vibrational connection.
That's some weird stuiff there, perfect between two bolts and fretted elsewhere.

And this business about re-using parts.
A burned up transmission is a terrible thing.
Replacing every bearing is only one little 'given'.
Evaluating the condition of all else, for a 2nd run (100,000 miles), is another.
Some things are very difficult to assess.
Like your R&P pattern, you know what pattern to go for with gear teeth that are accurate klingenberg-palloid etc.
You don't know what the pattern to approve, if they are worn funny.

Very happy you are going thru it and evaluating, as it is a very teachable moment that many of us are enjoying, and rarely get to be part of.
But it's you who has to invest the time and then go out there for a long period (5-10 years) ....hoping for 100,000 miles.
I'm kind of sorry to say this, but you might be looking at a "total wreck".
I hope not.
Hoping you will find the indicators that it's worth rebuilding.

I've just discovered that I don't know anything about "the DMF" (Dual Mass Flywheel)
I thought it was simply "twice as thick" etc.
Interesting that it has some monkey-business, but I'm still not imagining how, but I'm curious to learn something.👍🏽👍🏽

Has the RMS acronym is been decoded in this thread? I've been skipping over it.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

A good shop needs to stand behind their work. My experience is attempting to save an owner money, it ends up coming out of my wallet. That was a hard lesson. When you do something for yourself, you have the luxury of taking chances, knowing it may or may not last.

Even if this was a probuilt transaxle. It would not have survived the missing pilot shaft bearing. The disc would have been continuously off center which likely blew the flywheel balance to crap. No telling how the mounting surface reacted. I can see, what looks like the flywheel was actually beating the crank.

Bottom line, if your vehicle is dripping any fluids, something is wrong and should not be ignored. As I said earlier, I would not waste my time with that unit unless I was broke down in BFE.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

My bad. RMS is rear main seal. The crank seal on the clutch side.

So I did some thinking. When I originally installed all this I did on in a bum engine. I had to swap the engine out, maybe I forgot to install a new pilot bearing when I transferred the clutch over. I did remember new bolts...they are pricey.

Here is the input shaft. Hard to tell but it almost looks like the imprint of a long ago pilot bearing.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



While cleaning I broke this.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The rest of the good parts.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Somehow I lost 2 balls in one of these things. I'm not quite sure how or why. I have not found the balls nor any other balls of the main bearing.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Transmission fluid everywhere. Maybe I should have paid more attention to that engine leak but I didn't want to touch it until winter was over and I had another car at my disposal. I drive an old porsche, an even older square back, and I am around aircraft all the time. I think I have just grown use to things leaking and it being considered normal.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I thought I would do some good and install my new crank seal. Old and new, they look the same right?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


WRONG! Old part hole on the top is M6X1, the new part is M7X1. I don't know if this is Erling's fuckery or VW's doing. Waldo?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by old_man on Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

To answer someone's question about how much could the clutch disk/input shaft wobble about......about this much:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Clean marks where the clutch disk must have made contact with the edge of the flywheel: The black stuff you see is gunk from engine oil leak I assume.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Here is my DMF in action. I feel like it is wrong.

https://i.imgur.com/i0eQ4hE.mp4
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
?Waldo? wrote:
I doubt you need to reface the crank or the DMF.


Recommend getting more opinions on this, keep it on top for awhile....
I've just discovered that I don't know anything about "the DMF" (Dual Mass Flywheel)
I thought it was simply "twice as thick" etc.
Interesting that it has some monkey-business, but I'm still not imagining how, but I'm curious to learn something.👍🏽👍🏽


old_man wrote:
As for the flywheel. Those bolts were in there tight as was the flywheel.


The crank and flywheel were properly bolted together. I'm not sure why you think either need to be resurfaced. It would be good to see pics of the mating surfaces after they are cleaned. The surfaces need to be good enough that the flywheel bolts flush to the crank and, although it's a bit hard to tell with the dirty flywheel surface, I don't see anything that would indicate they won't.

The DMF has two separate masses, one on the crank side and one on the trans side and the two are coupled together with a couple large springs around the perimeter of the assembly. The effect is that power pulses from the engine are insulated from the trans by those springs.

old_man wrote:
Here is my DMF in action. I feel like it is wrong.

https://i.imgur.com/i0eQ4hE.mp4


The behavior of yours appears to be much like the behavior of the new one I have here, but the play/movement in the two directions is about double what I see on mine. I do not know what is acceptable after the assembly has worn in.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

I won’t fly a plane with leaks. That’s how I was trained many years ago. Interesting that aircraft with leaks is now acceptable?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

have a good friend that is a pilot and has 1/2 share in a Cessna 172. took me up for a ride and he is very thorough with his pre-flight. monitors oil consumption, etc. i noticed some oil streaking on the cowling and said "let's lift the cowling" to look at it. could very plainly see some seepage between at the oil cooler. not bad, not critical, but to me something that could be fixed easily with new o-rings or whatever they used.

same friend had to force land due to low oil pressure due to a ruptured flex hose to the oil pressure gauge hardline on a previous vintage aircrarft. aircraft mechanics had "passed" the hose even tho it was original 1968 vintage.

we vanagon nuts pre-emptively replace stuff un-necessarily... until we don't.
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erste
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

old_man wrote:
After some internet searching I found 2 places in Europe that sells stock 4th gear set in the 0.78 ratio. Price is roughly equivalent to the Weddle's price. Weddle shows out of stock but I think I will email them anyways. Is the GT straight cut gears worth it to eliminate any thrust issues on the main bearing?

This is what my Weddle .77 4th gear set looked like after 10k-15k miles. AHU TDI with dlc 1019 nozzles and kerma tune.
Big gear:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Smaller gear:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It’s a lot to spend, but I feel good knowing that the GT parts are stronger and should last longer than anything else. This isn’t a jab at Weddle. I don’t know if this is common or if it might have been a bit low on fluid + 70mph + tdi torque, but after seeing these gears up close it was easy justification for spending the money on the GT .85(?) straight cut 4th.

Maybe someone who knows what they’re talking about can chime in on your thrust question.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:42 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Erste, thanks for sharing you're Weddle gear experience.

I put a DK tranny in service, August, 2012 with Weddle 3rd & 4th gears (1.14 & 0.77) as well as new bearings, etc. Although I have not driven the Vanagon much since the fall of 2019, to date, it has over 84k miles on it, which many know, includes two long road trips pulling a popup camper (25k miles) running cruise at 70 mph. It has had a "whine" from day one while coasting in gear (only 3rd & 4th). In the first 1,000 miles, I changed the oil at least twice and have changed it a number of times since. It has never been low on oil. Yes, and the magnet has always had some Swarf on it........ maybe more than normal.

Anyway, fast forward to last year, I began accumulating all the necessary pieces to "build" another DK transmission starting with a 4.13 R&P (back-ordered for almost a year). Today, I do not have it finished but the cost is in excess of $2,500. I do plan to do a "Show & Tell" Thread when I am finished which will include a break-down of the first DK.

So, hopefully, later this year (more like late fall), I'll see what's transpired inside the DK with 84k miles on it. I do know it has a "spot" worn on one Pinion Gear tooth ......

Lastly, I do not believe the added torque of a TDI engine is necessarily a culprit in with the failure of these transmissions. However, I do believe the use of a DMF is extremely important as Waldo noted in his comments. The DMF absorbs the pounding pulses of the diesel engine, especially when idling in neutral.

Old-Man, keep us posted ....
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:51 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Erste, how do you find the noise of the straight cut 4th? (I think I may have ask you this before). Did you send those pictures back to Weddle for a response? I've got an email into GT to see what the lead time is like for a gear set and a 3/4 hub. Weddle shows out of stock. The only other option is new OEM gears from BrickWerks et al.

Andy I would very much like to see your show and tell when you complete it. Right now I am at the $950-1000 depending on the cost of the 4th gear and where I am going to find an oil slinger.

I agree with the DMF, it also feels a lot smoother. Price is acceptable too, it's around $120 for an input shaft and $190 for the entire DMF clutch kit. Really cheap considering. You can google DMF and come up and find vibration analysis charts. Apparently it even reduces stress on the crank. Science!

I thought more about the oil leak. I still believe that transmission leak happened rather sudden. I also believe that strange noise I heard in the parking lot of the hotel was the oil slinger that came loose. It came on all of a sudden and 2 min later it disappeared (hindsight, should have towed it home). Present in all gears and in neutral. No present with clutch in. I think that was the moment the flood gates opened. The other thing is how much of that oil all over the engine bay and is still clean. A slow leak tends to form gunk or grunge and it collects dirt. This fast leak actually cleaned off the belly of the oil pan. That's a fast leak. In the end, it does matter. I am here now.
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