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neil68 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3440 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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It looks similar to my AA bolt. I torqued to 405 ft lb. These aftermarket bolts are probably made in the same factories. _________________ Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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carguytroy Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2018 Posts: 294 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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neil68 wrote: |
It looks similar to my AA bolt. I torqued to 405 ft lb. These aftermarket bolts are probably made in the same factories. |
I知 sure you池e right. Just a different package like most things.
I知 not sure on what torque amount to use. I知 thinking around 300 ish. I see all these high numbers people use and I知 not sure it痴 necessary for my application. What would you guys think the torque value is at operating temperature? The expansion of the metal has to make things tighter. |
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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What are the specs of your engine? |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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The only thing that I see wrong is that dished washer, it could be fine but you would NEED it to flatten out when torqued, and that might affect the torque value (the NUT is using up force to flatten the washer.) If it's NOT a cupped spring washer but rather a bent up regular washer, then I would not use it. I just know the HD washer that came with my Berg gland nut was completely flat. I actually had a problem with the first washer they sent me, it had a C shaped dent on it (some sort of weird factory stamping error.) When I called they were extremely apologetic and said that is was no good and that they are supposed to be flat, so they send me a new one.
400 ft/lbs honestly doesn't feel like that much torque when you actually apply it. Hard to explain...
I would go atleast 350, even for stock, just to be safe.
Whatever you do, DO NOT install the gland nut dry. _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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carguytroy Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2018 Posts: 294 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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txoval wrote: |
What are the specs of your engine? |
Its a chromoly 4140 crank. 74mm stroke. Engine specs are 74x92mm thick wall, web cams 163, MOFOCO 041 heads, 9:1 compression static, standard ratio rockers(for now), and dual 40 webers. |
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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I would recommend 350-400
Do you have the torque multiplication tool? 40 to 45 ft-lbs with it would be good |
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wheel607 Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2004 Posts: 1845
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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Has anybody torqued the Berg or Scat gland nut to 625 ft lbs as I have and Jose has recommended at DPR. Several times I have asked and he even wrote it on the ticket....625 ft. lbs. This was a Wedge mated crank and I have torqued this nut several times to this amount. Anybody broken a nut? Who made it? |
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carguytroy Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2018 Posts: 294 Location: Utah
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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Went a little over 300 using the torque tool and lots of red loctite. Hopefully I知 good. Thanks everyone for the help. |
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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you will be fine, but the red loctite will be a bitch in the future |
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richierich Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2004 Posts: 887
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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wheel607 wrote: |
Has anybody torqued the Berg or Scat gland nut to 625 ft lbs as I have and Jose has recommended at DPR. Several times I have asked and he even wrote it on the ticket....625 ft. lbs. This was a Wedge mated crank and I have torqued this nut several times to this amount. Anybody broken a nut? Who made it? |
My SCAT nut is at 500 ft/lbs _________________ Blah..... |
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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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modok wrote: |
Not exactly same as scat from the look of it. 38 or 36mm head?
350 is good guess IMO.
Lube the threads and under the head with moly grease.
I see some pink stuff on there, maybe cam lube, that's probably fine.
Or maybe it's arby's sauce.
I'm not going to try tasting it.
Will take your word for it thanks. |
No Loctite.
Interesting.
I am seeing numbers all over the place. _________________ Never blame lazy people, they didn't do anything. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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I use loctite on all kinds of things but in this case it's just going to complicate things.
If a dowel pin was loose do you think loctite would be strong enough to Fix that....... no, it's just acrylic plastic.
This type of thing relies on TIGHT fit, CONTACT, metal to metal contact between the dowels, and same with the holy bolt. Short bolts like this don't have a lot of stretch, so it helps to torque them and loosen a few times to establish good contact at the threads and the head....no high spots to squish down and then lose what stretch you do have, and what also helps to MATE the surfaces happily is to be LUBED while your doing that.
So I'd recommend do that, and if you want to then CLEAN it all out and apply loctite, ok, and then you can figure out how to get the loctite back out again next time. I have that tap, I bet you don't. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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You could go to the hardware store and pick a random nut and a bolt, thread it together with your fingers, and that nut may suddenly seize dead solid and lock up and you'll never get it apart. Seemingly for no reason.
True story. I've SEEN it. I even cut one apart just to see what happened.
What the heck happened? well, we don't really know.
COLD welding? (partly, yes)
I think what causes that MOST of the time..... is just a LOOSE piece in the threads in one part or another, which then came loose and ROLLED into a snowball, literally. once it happened, doesn't matter if you go forward or backward it just gets worse.
So maybe that was slag in the metal, or a burr that got smashed down into the thread which then rose up, or a void in the metal, or maybe just dirt.
most often with FRESHLy machined or rolled steel, because FRESH metal surfaces will snowball very readily VS OLD ones that have grown an oxide layer.
Happens with FRESH & DRY & bare steel/iron parts.
Mechanics doing repair deal mainly with threaded fasteners that are already old and oily or oxidized, most of them plated, and have already been tightened and loosened several times, so they don't get to EXPERIENCE this lovely stroke of bad luck very often, or when they do it doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary because they are used to everything being stuck and rusted anyway.
I've met several machinists that if they just tapped a hole, especially for pipe, but other things too, WILL NOT check fit the thing in the hole without LUBING it. Like a religion. And like a religion.... they don't really remember how it started anymore, kind of forgot the plot.
So we got guys lubing every wood screw building a barn doesn't even know if it's working or not. True story.
I even tried that out and oiling a wood screw does help but only if it's a fresh PLAIn steel screw, most of them are plated or coated now.
It's happened to me a few times too. Theoretically iron is self lubricating.....but not in THIS way. Had to drill out a few things I just "test fitted"
IT'S REAL, and may become a believer if you venture into that situation unaware and luck is against you.
IDEALLY the crank and flywheel AND gland nut should be a matched set, literally mated together, and never swapped around, and the threads should be always lubed.
It's not an ideal world, I know.
Anyway that's what I think of when you guys are putting your NEW gland nut into your NEW crank, I know there is a 2% chance it will snowball, but with a GOOD lube on it, moly grease or heavy gear oil or epl, that reduces the chances down to fraction of a percent.
After it's worn-in a little then it's really good to go, and good lube will let you get MORE uses until it's worn out. And they do also just wear out.
So.... loctite, or not loctite, not really a big concern, LUBE IT should give most CONSISTENT results. |
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jeff68 Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2007 Posts: 298 Location: Sarasota, Florida
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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Please post if you have any trouble with the EMPI gland nut. IMO, since the company was purchased, and has "restarted" it seems EMPI is really trying to provide quality parts that fit and last. I guess time will tell but I hope they do.
As far as assembling engine parts.....the general rule I have is, know what you have, inspect all of the parts for defects and proper fit and finish, some parts may need some massaging to fit properly, CLEAN everything, as you assemble keep checking that parts fit and move properly, pay attention when you're working, and have fun! |
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Dauz Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010 Posts: 1790
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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If you do like me, you only have to torque to 79ft lbs. But there's eight of them |
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stevemariott Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003 Posts: 1049 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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I've used a couple of the Empi chromoly gland nuts - torqued to 325 lbs. with red loctite. I've never had an issue with them.
I used a Berg this last time around because I messed up the seal on the Empi nut at some point. The price difference between the Berg and the Empi was about $10. _________________ 1963 Manx copy
1968 Bus |
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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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stevemariott wrote: |
I've used a couple of the Empi chromoly gland nuts - torqued to 325 lbs. with red loctite. I've never had an issue with them.
I used a Berg this last time around because I messed up the seal on the Empi nut at some point. The price difference between the Berg and the Empi was about $10. |
Something as important as the gland nut IMO will never come from that Chinese peddler. A lot of time will tell. A real lot of time. _________________ Never blame lazy people, they didn't do anything. |
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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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modok wrote: |
You could go to the hardware store and pick a random nut and a bolt, thread it together with your fingers, and that nut may suddenly seize dead solid and lock up and you'll never get it apart. Seemingly for no reason.
True story. I've SEEN it. I even cut one apart just to see what happened.
What the heck happened? well, we don't really know.
COLD welding? (partly, yes)
I think what causes that MOST of the time..... is just a LOOSE piece in the threads in one part or another, which then came loose and ROLLED into a snowball, literally. once it happened, doesn't matter if you go forward or backward it just gets worse.
So maybe that was slag in the metal, or a burr that got smashed down into the thread which then rose up, or a void in the metal, or maybe just dirt.
most often with FRESHLy machined or rolled steel, because FRESH metal surfaces will snowball very readily VS OLD ones that have grown an oxide layer.
Happens with FRESH & DRY & bare steel/iron parts.
Mechanics doing repair deal mainly with threaded fasteners that are already old and oily or oxidized, most of them plated, and have already been tightened and loosened several times, so they don't get to EXPERIENCE this lovely stroke of bad luck very often, or when they do it doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary because they are used to everything being stuck and rusted anyway.
I've met several machinists that if they just tapped a hole, especially for pipe, but other things too, WILL NOT check fit the thing in the hole without LUBING it. Like a religion. And like a religion.... they don't really remember how it started anymore, kind of forgot the plot.
So we got guys lubing every wood screw building a barn doesn't even know if it's working or not. True story.
I even tried that out and oiling a wood screw does help but only if it's a fresh PLAIn steel screw, most of them are plated or coated now.
It's happened to me a few times too. Theoretically iron is self lubricating.....but not in THIS way. Had to drill out a few things I just "test fitted"
IT'S REAL, and may become a believer if you venture into that situation unaware and luck is against you.
IDEALLY the crank and flywheel AND gland nut should be a matched set, literally mated together, and never swapped around, and the threads should be always lubed.
It's not an ideal world, I know.
Anyway that's what I think of when you guys are putting your NEW gland nut into your NEW crank, I know there is a 2% chance it will snowball, but with a GOOD lube on it, moly grease or heavy gear oil or epl, that reduces the chances down to fraction of a percent.
After it's worn-in a little then it's really good to go, and good lube will let you get MORE uses until it's worn out. And they do also just wear out.
So.... loctite, or not loctite, not really a big concern, LUBE IT should give most CONSISTENT results. |
This has also been close to the way I have always thought but with so much emphasis on here about brutally tightening and using Loctite my thoughts started to shift but I too think good lube is the way to go. I,m not going to be doing 7k rpm launches and with a balanced rotating assembly I think a lubed Berg crank bolt @350 ft.lbs. is going to be fine. _________________ Never blame lazy people, they didn't do anything. |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3412 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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Left over arp lube from rods works good. Never screw a dry hole |
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slalombuggy Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9131 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Chromoly Gland Nut Torque |
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I've broken 2 gland nuts. Both were stock and at stock torque.
I've used many Bellville (cupped) washers in critical industrial applications. They act as a lock washer, at 400# they will flatten out don't worry about that
I've also used a few AA gland nuts rgat look just like these in 2L + sized engines, no problems so far and they've been getting run HARD in offroad buggies. |
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