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New faucet water pump melt down
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Vanuber
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:40 pm    Post subject: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

So, I did an aux battery install over the past few months. As part of that, I rewired the sink pump into the new system. I replaced the water lines and the sink pump during the process (new from Go Westy).

We went on the first camping trip after the install this weekend, and as I was filling the water tank I noticed a putrid electrical burning smell. Pulled out my water pump and found it had suffered a good melt down - see photos below.

In trouble shooting I checked the following:

1) Voltage at pump connection - 13.8V with tank water turned on at faucet
2) Switch at faucet is functioning correctly
3) Voltage at fuse - 13.8V
4) 8A fuse is not blown

Possible scenarios:

1) Defective pump
2) Accidentally left pump on with an empty tank and burned it out
3) Pump cannot handle LiFePO4 14V output and need to find a higher voltage pump.

Any thoughts on what went wrong here? I have another pump on order. Unfortunately, my water tank smells strongly of burnt electronics so need to figure out how to get the smell out.

A side note... With lithium batteries we are pushing voltages up to 14V. Is this safe for typical 12v accessories? I am wondering if I need a voltage regulator going to the pump. But that would be a big pain in the arse.

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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

Is the pump circuit fused or not? I could see an unregulated short to ground inside the pump melting it with enough amps, but the pump is switched by demand only when in use, yes?... So, how is it run, power side switched or ground side switched to power the pump?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

Regarding the 14V question; while I don't have that specific pump, my shore power charger routinely floats to 14.7 V for my AGM batteries. It is on shore power for weeks at a time with lots of accessories running. Refrigerator, lights, water pump, stereo, USB chargers, fantastic fan, etc. I've never had any issues with things dying at those voltages. My recollection is that usually when a DC voltage range is stated for a device, it's pretty wide, like 10-16V.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

My guess is that it was run while not submerged for an extended period of time. I may have heard once that these pumps need to be underwater to stay cool while running. The first Vanagon I bought in 1997 had a burnt out pump and the seller said the detailer bumped the faucet and left it running.

The Comet website says it can run dry for 30 minutes w/out damage. I wonder what a pump looks like after 30 minutes?

https://www.comet-pumpen.de/fileadmin/pdf/pumpen_d....12.00.pdf
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

I think you need to pull the tank out and give it a good scrubbing.

Use baking soda after the scrub to neutralize odors.

I would hook up my shop vac to do a continuous air exchange for a few hours sucking any smell residue out.
Do this in the Sun, the sun is a great neutralizer.

Renew baking soda, rinse and repeat until the smell is gone.

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:36 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

Interestingly the earliest Vanagon Westies with the external pump will not run the pump if the tank is empty. Later vans do not have that feature, both good and bad. This may offer a hint as to what happens when the pump is run dry for extended time periods.
My advice, if it matters, would be to install a GoWesty pneumatic foot switch hanging it out of the way when not in use.
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Vanuber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

Thanks for the tips and advice. Sounds like the consensus is that I inadvertently left it running. I will get scrubbing on the tank with some baking soda. Bus Depot should have that pump to me this week and I will try again!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

I don't understand how the pump could seize and the fuse not blow. I'd investigate that a bit further when you install the replacement pump. Maybe a smaller rated fuse would be prudent.
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Vanuber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
I don't understand how the pump could seize and the fuse not blow. I'd investigate that a bit further when you install the replacement pump. Maybe a smaller rated fuse would be prudent.


I thought about that as well - seems odd. I am using an 8A fuse and the stock fuse was 7.5A. I believe the LED fridge/batt panel is also on that circuit. I will take some output measurements when I get the new pump and see what's going on.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

From memory as voltage goes up, amperage goes down or vice versa. Maybe the slightly higher voltage lowered the amperage enough to skate below the 8 amp fuse. Likely once the wires melted together the fuse would have blown.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

Just speculation but as the pump melted the brush holder and brush spring would have also begin to melt reducing the pressure on the brushes. The pump may have not seized but simply lost contact with the brushes thus the fuse would not have failed.
From memory the pump only uses ~1.5-2.0 amps max. I am heading into the shop now just to satisfy my curiosity. Back after lunch.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

Reminds me of the melted connector to my radiator fan. That cicuit is protected by a 30 amp fuse, and the connector melted due to a bad bearing in the motor, but the fuse held up. Must have been close though.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

dgbeatty wrote:
Just speculation but as the pump melted the brush holder and brush spring would have also begin to melt reducing the pressure on the brushes. The pump may have not seized but simply lost contact with the brushes thus the fuse would not have failed.
From memory the pump only uses ~1.5-2.0 amps max. I am heading into the shop now just to satisfy my curiosity. Back after lunch.


Thereabouts. I measured 2.6 amps w/out any load from hoses or lift.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8851192#8851192
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

dgbeatty wrote:
Interestingly the earliest Vanagon Westies with the external pump will not run the pump if the tank is empty. Later vans do not have that feature, both good and bad.


Why would one need to run the water pump if the tank is empty?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

Fiddlestyx wrote:
dgbeatty wrote:
Interestingly the earliest Vanagon Westies with the external pump will not run the pump if the tank is empty. Later vans do not have that feature, both good and bad.


Why would one need to run the water pump if the tank is empty?


I think you're missing the point here. You do not want it to run when the tank is empty so that is why on some model years there is a built-in interlock that prevents the pump from running if there is no (or low) water in the tank. This prevents you from burning up your pump if you happen to pump all of the water out of the tank.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: New faucet water pump melt down Reply with quote

It’s good to know the actual draw. It’s quite a bit less than 8 amps. Have you attempted to measure the draw of the melted pump? It may have just failed in such a way that the load didn’t go up enough to pop the fuse.
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