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croSSeduP
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 1107
Location: Western Washington State
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 Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:58 pm Post subject: Too Hot: WTH? |
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A year ago I got this engine running in weather we are having the last two days (sunny, highs in the high 70's), and I took it on its first long drive. It was on that drive that I discovered that I had oil pressure problems. At all the way hot the oil was running at about 200-210, heads were 260-280, but when I pulled off the highway the oil pressure dropped to 0, and I was running 15-50 oil because I noticed the oil pressure was low running 10-30 break-in oil. I was also running an old Stinger S4 ignition that seemed to work just fine. I got a tow home, took apart my motor to discover scuffed rod bearings. It was the second time this engine laid down because of bad oil pressure. A year before that I didn't notice the oil pressure at 0, but I did seize a rod bearing. So, this time I got rid of the engine case, which was a '79 FI case on its first line bore, and bought a brand new engine case ($$$). Now, I'm running 10-30 Driven break-in oil and it has good oil pressure, even when hot, but...HOT. Why? I've changed 2 major things and one minor thing: Instead of the Stinger ignition, I opted for a CB Magnaspark II, and the new engine case. The other minor thing is I had my IDA's rebuilt. Everything else is the same. Any ideas?
Notice how the temp dip stick is almost grounding out, which means in reality the oil is at about 225. TOO HOT. What will it read when the ambient temps are, say, 90?
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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| croSSeduP wrote: |
| Now, I'm running 10-30 Driven break-in oil and it has good oil pressure, even when hot, but...HOT. |
Maybe it's that simple.
When the oil pressures over about 40PSI, the cooler is bypassed.
Unless you have changed how it works.
If you want to run 15-40, need to set the rod bearings extra loose.
Lately I'm in a mood to rant about bearings. Not sure if this is the time. Maybe it will be a new subject. |
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croSSeduP
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 1107
Location: Western Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:01 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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| modok wrote: |
| croSSeduP wrote: |
| Now, I'm running 10-30 Driven break-in oil and it has good oil pressure, even when hot, but...HOT. |
Maybe it's that simple.
When the oil pressures over about 40PSI, the cooler is bypassed.
Unless you have changed how it works.
If you want to run 15-40, need to set the rod bearings extra loose.
Lately I'm in a mood to rant about bearings. Not sure if this is the time. Maybe it will be a new subject. |
I don't think this is it. When it's all the way hot - driving down the freeway, rpm's at 3k - the pressure is at about 30lbs. I also DO NOT like heavier oils. Once this is broken in, and I get the overheating thing figured out, I'm using either 10-30 or straight 30w.
Have you ever seen a flap thermostat just go "bad"? I'm thinking about removing the thermostat and just propping the flaps in the fan shroud all the way open and see.
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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the old style thermostat cannot fail closed, but I found a thermostat stuck in it's bracket so it could not open.
you could find some way to determine that air and oil is flowing through the cooler.
Making sure the components are right is easier IMO, but with so many unknowns it's hard to say for sure what is and what isn't.
NEW engine case, is a pretty big difference.
Last edited by modok on Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76949
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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Maybe the gauge is nit accurate, mine reads 40* higher.
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madmike
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Joined: July 11, 2005
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Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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My question is 'That Dip stick' calibrated to the Autometer gauge? why not use the Autometer sender? , also Rpm's make the oil HOT , what happens when ya slow down , does the oil temp eventually come down too?
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richierich
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Joined: December 23, 2004
Posts: 889
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:46 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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Don't mean to sound rude here but why are you thinking 225 is TOO hot?
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FreeBug
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Joined: March 12, 2012
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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| Engines tend to run hotter at fist, during break-in. |
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Bruce Amacker
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Joined: December 26, 2007
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Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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225*F oil temps is not TOO HOT. Read what the oil companies say about using their products. You need to panic when you see above 235* with dyno oil or 250* with synthetics. 210-225 are considered normal oil temps.
Have you verified your gauges are accurate?
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GARRICK.CLARK
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Joined: June 30, 2012
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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If the dip stick burns your fingers... That is a good basic indication that its too hot. Check behind the fan for any foreign objects. Rag's etc.
Gauges create worry.
All I have is the oil temp, no oil pressure or head temp.
I work on if the oil light doesn't come on at hot idle good. I do have an auto metre big red wired up as well though
Last edited by GARRICK.CLARK on Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vwinnovator
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Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1555
Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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What's your timing set at?
How did you set your A/F
What cam/compression?
What pulley/belt set-up? |
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King_vw61
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Joined: February 03, 2018
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Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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Did u leave the oil cooler set-up you had before, with the Jaycee bypass?
My oil temp was 225 yesterday on a 88 degree day driving 30 mile from a cars and coffee. Come to a light and it cools down to 205, then back up. This is being read at the hottest point, then thru the cooler and to the bearings. So the bearings are seeing 20 to 30 degree less.
LAT 50 weight oil. I would tell you the head temps but I was recording the drive to get data and I forgot to hit the record button again before I shut the key off, so I lost all the data.
I did play with the retard on the timing and dropping the timing 1.5 from 31 total didnt seem to do anything, dropping it 4.5 (the second retard adds 3 to the first) did nothing to the temp also.
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Alstrup
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croSSeduP
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 1107
Location: Western Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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| ivkings4 wrote: |
Did u leave the oil cooler set-up you had before, with the Jaycee bypass?
My oil temp was 225 yesterday on a 88 degree day driving 30 mile from a cars and coffee. Come to a light and it cools down to 205, then back up. This is being read at the hottest point, then thru the cooler and to the bearings. So the bearings are seeing 20 to 30 degree less.
LAT 50 weight oil. I would tell you the head temps but I was recording the drive to get data and I forgot to hit the record button again before I shut the key off, so I lost all the data.
I did play with the retard on the timing and dropping the timing 1.5 from 31 total didnt seem to do anything, dropping it 4.5 (the second retard adds 3 to the first) did nothing to the temp also. |
I appreciate everybody chiming in here. Very helpful, but the above post from ivkings4 is particularly helpful. I see you've read my other threads.
Thank you! No, I'm not running the JayCee bypass anymore. It's only getting pressure relief from the case bypass system. On my oil pressure gauge you can see it bypass, too. When the oil is hot it does not go above 50lbs no matter what the rpm. When all the way hot at 3000 rpm it's running around 30lbs, which is right where it should be. The oil/head temps don't change when I pull off the freeway. I've not seen any variation.
Could a plunger be stuck? Would using a heavier spring at the oil filter bypass help by forcing more oil through the cooler (in case it is bypassing)? Should I just suck it up and install a remote cooler? Could this all be "normal"? Here is the engine specs:
2276, new mag case from Brothers, Performance Workshop welded Stage 3 heads, fresh 48IDA's, 1 3/4" merged exhaust, 10:1 CR, SLR EXR 310 (similar to a Engle FK-46), stock fan shroud with all the tin and doghouse in place...
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King_vw61
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Joined: February 03, 2018
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Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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No bypass at the filter. Ever. Unless you live in Alaska. What if it fails?
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VeloMikey
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Joined: March 19, 2012
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Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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Put on a Setrab remote cooler with a fan and 180* thermostat. Mount it on the torsion tube with a Foothill Fab mount kit. You will never see oil temps over 180* again. I was in the same boat as you chasing high oil temps and this cured my problem. I didn't have the stock flaps or T stat. Report back your head temps after you install it. Are you picking up the head temp off of the #3 spark plug with a ring type sending unit?
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74 Thing
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Alstrup
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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180 F is not enough. You need the oil to come to at least 195-200 on a regular basis, or the engine will not evaporite the condensation properly and you will contaminate the oil.
BAT sells some nice thermostats where you can chose the opening temperature. For type 1 engines I chose the 82 C
https://www.bat-motorsport.de/en/external-filter-holder-with-thermostat
When you use a 180 degree F thermoswitch at the cooler, put it on the outlet side, then you ensure that the oil can reach a decent temperature. Done this way the BAT thermostat and the cooler can secure a rather steady temperature.
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richierich
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Joined: December 23, 2004
Posts: 889
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Too Hot: WTH? |
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| croSSeduP wrote: |
| ivkings4 wrote: |
Did u leave the oil cooler set-up you had before, with the Jaycee bypass?
My oil temp was 225 yesterday on a 88 degree day driving 30 mile from a cars and coffee. Come to a light and it cools down to 205, then back up. This is being read at the hottest point, then thru the cooler and to the bearings. So the bearings are seeing 20 to 30 degree less.
LAT 50 weight oil. I would tell you the head temps but I was recording the drive to get data and I forgot to hit the record button again before I shut the key off, so I lost all the data.
I did play with the retard on the timing and dropping the timing 1.5 from 31 total didnt seem to do anything, dropping it 4.5 (the second retard adds 3 to the first) did nothing to the temp also. |
I appreciate everybody chiming in here. Very helpful, but the above post from ivkings4 is particularly helpful. I see you've read my other threads.
Thank you! No, I'm not running the JayCee bypass anymore. It's only getting pressure relief from the case bypass system. On my oil pressure gauge you can see it bypass, too. When the oil is hot it does not go above 50lbs no matter what the rpm. When all the way hot at 3000 rpm it's running around 30lbs, which is right where it should be. The oil/head temps don't change when I pull off the freeway. I've not seen any variation.
Could a plunger be stuck? Would using a heavier spring at the oil filter bypass help by forcing more oil through the cooler (in case it is bypassing)? Should I just suck it up and install a remote cooler? Could this all be "normal"? Here is the engine specs:
2276, new mag case from Brothers, Performance Workshop welded Stage 3 heads, fresh 48IDA's, 1 3/4" merged exhaust, 10:1 CR, SLR EXR 310 (similar to a Engle FK-46), stock fan shroud with all the tin and doghouse in place... |
Do you have the foam strip up and over the stock cooler?
Also, make sure your head tins are well closed up around the plug holes etc where you've trimmed the tin for the intakes.
I know my old 2276 with IDA's and 10.2:1 CR I had in my Oval ran 225°f oil pretty much all the time which I was more than happy with and it never really fluctuated BUT I did have an issue early on with what I pointed to above - poorly fitted head tins around the intakes. Fitting some closing pieces made 10-15° difference. That was an ally case though.
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