Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Bus or bug trans?
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
matthewl
Samba Member


Joined: October 28, 2014
Posts: 328

matthewl is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:04 pm    Post subject: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

So this is my question for the trans guys. Would a "Pro Street " IRS type one trans or a mostly stock 002 bus trans with the berg intermediate housing be best?
My thinking on the mostly stock bus trans is it would have the stronger side gears and stronger R&P, plus type 2 CV joints. I know the main shaft and gears are the same strength as a type one in the 002, so no gain there.
Plus the type 2 would not have a super diff.
I know a type one should be fine for my application but just thinking for a few dollars more the type 2 has the better side gears, if I added that to the type one it would massively increase the cost.
This is going in a fiberglass manx buggy with a
2332cc with 42x37 ported heads, c-95 cam, around 9:1 compression, 44 idf and 1/5/8" exhaust
Primary use is street with the three or four trips a year to the drag strip.
And yes I know an 091 is way stronger but don't want to go down that rabbit hole.
_________________
Check out all the Air-cooled fun on my YouTube channel https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCl9IVR1svnDmH1i6yQ4_o1Q?view_as=subscriber
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Alstrup
Samba Member


Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7183
Location: Videbaek Denmark
Alstrup is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

For a buggy, in that power range I wouldnt bother. Give Kevin @ KCR a bell and get one of his Super street plus or Pro street type 1 transmissions.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vwracerdave
Samba Member


Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15281
Location: Deep in the 405
vwracerdave is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

If your gonna drag race with slicks get the Bus box. If your gonna drag race with DOT radials or street tires then you can get by with the Bug box on a lightweight Buggy.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63

Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

Folts tries to talk everyone into a bus box if IRS is an option, by the time you build a strong type 1 the cost to go bus is very little more. Stronger and larger R&P better internals with less upgrades needed over a type 1

This is if you are going all out on the type 1, Dave Folts builds the trans for what you want, He does not have fancy names like freeway flier or pro street.
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
[email protected]
Samba Member


Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
gkeeton@zbzoom.net is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:54 am    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

With the exception of the gears in the diff being bigger, a stock 002 Type 2 5.38/4.86 r&p is actually weaker than a Type 1 3.88 r&p. The main strength advantage of a Type 2 is in the wider 091 gears, and a 4.57/4.13 r&p. The bottom line is, what tires you will be using, and how hard you plan on abusing it at the track. If you’re planning a more off road version of a buggy with 28-30 inch tires, a stock geared 091 with a super diff would hold up to some abuse for a while. If you don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of an 091 trans. because of cost, either don’t take the buggy to the track, or save more money.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

sorry, my example was with a 4.13 from weddle. not the stock R/P on the 002

Dave said the good core is 400.00 for a 002 and the R/P is under 1k, using what the good core has and upgrading the R/P and a few other parts is the smart way to go, better foundation to go from in the future.
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
matthewl
Samba Member


Joined: October 28, 2014
Posts: 328

matthewl is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

Thanks for the info guys. Yes a bus box is probably over kill and adding complexity and it sounds like there's not much advantage to the 002. But just trying to way my options for future growth.
So I guess a better question is a stock rebuilt 091 stronger than a IRS type 1 with a super diff, 4.12 R&P, 3.80 first, welded 3/4 hubs and chromoly pinion retainer?
Both of those trans cost almost the same, but the 091 has more room to grow from what it sounds like.
How bad is the shifting on a stock rebuilt 091 with the 10° mount?
A friend of mine has the 10° mount with a wore out 002 trans in his baja and it sucks to shift.
Thanks again guys for putting up with my question.
_________________
Check out all the Air-cooled fun on my YouTube channel https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCl9IVR1svnDmH1i6yQ4_o1Q?view_as=subscriber
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ekacpuc
Samba Member


Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
ekacpuc is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

I have a stock 3 rib 002 with a 2332, tims stage 2 heads, web 252 and 1 5/8” exhaust and haven’t broke it.


I’ve been running the 10 degree for years and haven’t had issues. I did replace the guide rod bushing and use a early rubber nose cone coupler or whatever it was called.

I did manage to kill a stock type 1 transmission though.

An 091 would be nice and I wish I would have went that route in the first place. The 002 is clearly bigger than the bug trans, people knock the 3 rib internals but I haven’t had issues.

When I ran a full body I did have clearance issues at the exhaust and tin didn’t fit like it should to the apron using the 10 degree. Also makes getting to the engine bolts and cooling fan nut suck.

If you use the intermediate housing you don’t need the 10 degree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
[email protected]
Samba Member


Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
gkeeton@zbzoom.net is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

matthewl wrote:
So I guess a better question is a stock rebuilt 091 stronger than a IRS type 1 with a super diff, 4.12 R&P, 3.80 first, welded 3/4 hubs and chromoly pinion retainer?
Both of those trans cost almost the same, but the 091 has more room to grow from what it sounds like.
How bad is the shifting on a stock rebuilt 091 with the 10° mount?
A friend of mine has the 10° mount with a wore out 002 trans in his baja and it sucks to shift.
Thanks again guys for putting up with my question.


Yes, an 091 will have a wider 3.78 1st gear, and the most durable differential gears in stock form. A super diff added to an 091 shouldn’t add to much to the overall cost, but will add significant durability. If you need an outright trans, do some research on core prices from whoever you decide to get the trans from. Some shops I know of have increased core values on Type 2 trans 400% in the 16 years I’ve worked on them. That’s usually about 300% of what a Type 1 core is.

The conversion intermediate housing not only enables the shifting mechanism to enter the pan a little better, but eliminates some of the additional linkage in a Type 2 trans. For daily driving, the stock mechanism will be fine, but it will hinder you in quick shifting at the track.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wreck
Samba Member


Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1211
Location: Brisbane
Wreck is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

what size rear tyres are you planning to run ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
matthewl
Samba Member


Joined: October 28, 2014
Posts: 328

matthewl is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

N50-15 tires = 28" tall
_________________
Check out all the Air-cooled fun on my YouTube channel https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCl9IVR1svnDmH1i6yQ4_o1Q?view_as=subscriber
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
matthewl
Samba Member


Joined: October 28, 2014
Posts: 328

matthewl is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

Will be a street buggy not an off-road buggy.
_________________
Check out all the Air-cooled fun on my YouTube channel https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCl9IVR1svnDmH1i6yQ4_o1Q?view_as=subscriber
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wreck
Samba Member


Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1211
Location: Brisbane
Wreck is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

matthewl wrote:
N50-15 tires = 28" tall


My choice for that tyre size on a budget would be a good S/H 5 rib 002 . 4.86 diff and fair ratios stock . There are some simple gear shift solutions . Not ideal for drag racing but if you plan to drive on the street 99% of the time they work ok .

A type 1 with a strong 3.88 would be too tall geared in my opinion . Edited , forgot it was not being used off road , so low 3rd ,4th would work . And give you longer 1st/2nd .

If you look at a S/H box , grab the input shaft , if you can push it in and out , then the box is worn out and the housings flogged . If the shaft is solid , it can select all gears , oil looks ok , then there is a fair chance the box will be ok to use .


Last edited by Wreck on Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ekacpuc
Samba Member


Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: ketchikan alaska
ekacpuc is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

I don’t get what the issue with the shifter is.. yeah there’s an angle there but when you set the length of the nosecone mount you can reduce the angle by putting the nose cone towards the top of the hole in the car. I didn’t notice a difference in feel going from a bug trans too a bus. I don’t have a short throw shifter though and can see potential issues there. I also didn’t use the box style coupler but instead used a early doughnut style. The dimple will be on the wrong side but hasn’t been a issue for me and I don’t remember adding a dimple.

Going to the 10 degree it did show the nose cone seal leaked..

I have the 5.38 R&P with 235s in back. For the speed limits here it’s perfect but in Alaska the max speed limit is 55 MPH. Town is 25 MPH. Iirc I’m around 3400 rpm at 55.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
madmike
Samba Member


Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5291
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
madmike is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:14 am    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

I've ran those tires on the street and tried to drag race too ,they only have a contact patch of a few inches like 2" or 3"when launching Laughing Wink
so that said , stick with a Type 1 box , add a super diff and some type2/181 drive flanges for the bigger axles , I have about 5 years on my trans an many passes down the strip with 6" and 7' wide slicks , without any problems and that was with the heavy turbo bug which has purty good torque/power Wink
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

buggy had a built 2332 w/ida and was purty quick too Laughing
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
matthewl
Samba Member


Joined: October 28, 2014
Posts: 328

matthewl is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

So I'm thinking a rebuilt stock 091 is the way for me to go. Sounds like it is as strong as a " PRO STREET" type box, plus it leaves room to grow for the future. It also has a better gear ratio for the 28" tall tire, will just use the 10° mount and stock shifter. Thank you guys for all the information it has helped a lot.
_________________
Check out all the Air-cooled fun on my YouTube channel https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCl9IVR1svnDmH1i6yQ4_o1Q?view_as=subscriber
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
[email protected]
Samba Member


Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
gkeeton@zbzoom.net is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

matthewl wrote:
So I'm thinking a rebuilt stock 091 is the way for me to go. Sounds like it is as strong as a " PRO STREET" type box, plus it leaves room to grow for the future. It also has a better gear ratio for the 28" tall tire, will just use the 10° mount and stock shifter. Thank you guys for all the information it has helped a lot.


The 4.57 r&p would work well with a 28 inch tire. Get a 4 spider diff. If you don’t think the cast ones are good enough, or don’t want to spend the money on the race one, get an OEM VW one from a Vanagon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
77charger
Samba Member


Joined: November 12, 2005
Posts: 1492

77charger is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

I ran an 091 case with all weddle geared 002 internal 4.57 weddle ring pinion too.7 years of duning no wear on gears.Engine was 2275

Now using a 3.5 honda ring and pinion looks good after 2 seasons and gears look good too.
_________________
Click to view image
Bugpack 4 seater rail
2275 built by me
Auto linea alm case,82 dpr crank wedgemated by DK machine
cb 5.4 h beams,12 pound DPR f/w,Slr xv294cam,cb straight cuts,hpmx 44s,40x35 heads ported by brothers machine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bad bug
Samba Member


Joined: March 11, 2006
Posts: 1119
Location: Jamaica
Bad bug is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:22 am    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

77charger wrote:
I ran an 091 case with all weddle geared 002 internal 4.57 weddle ring pinion too.7 years of duning no wear on gears.Engine was 2275

Now using a 3.5 honda ring and pinion looks good after 2 seasons and gears look good too.


What was it like to drive the 091 box with the 2276cc t1, did it accelerate quickly, did you also have good topend speed, reason for me asking is your 2276 with 40 x 35.5 valve should have a lot of torque i want feed back on this setup as i also have an 091 that i want to put on a 2.2ltr web86b oxyboxer with panchitos going in a 72 beetle.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Casting Timmy
Samba Member


Joined: August 04, 2012
Posts: 1221
Location: Kansas City, Kansas
Casting Timmy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Bus or bug trans? Reply with quote

ivkings4 wrote:
Folts tries to talk everyone into a bus box if IRS is an option, by the time you build a strong type 1 the cost to go bus is very little more. Stronger and larger R&P better internals with less upgrades needed over a type 1

This is if you are going all out on the type 1, Dave Folts builds the trans for what you want, He does not have fancy names like freeway flier or pro street.


I've always enjoyed talking to Dave, he's mentioned to go bus a few times with me as well. I think he makes a U joint adaptor for bus boxes for even the swing guys if I remember right. I always thought that was pretty slick.
_________________
T1 IRS Rebuild Book on Lulu.com
http://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-transaxle-book/paperback/product-24055997.html
As seen in Volks America Issue 14 Page 11 (Full page review)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.