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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1415 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:16 am Post subject: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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Good morning. Has anyone ever figured out if the fuel injection cam is any different than the earlier carb cams? I have 3 core FI cases and all have cam number 113 109 101f. After trying a 2280 cam in a recent rebuild (failed experiment) I'm going back all stock, however looking for recommendations on a stock or near stock replacement. |
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APPLEGREENVW Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2003 Posts: 2379 Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:23 am Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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99% of failed parts are not the parts fault. everything needs preped and reworked before usage. especially new cams.and cylinders..and oh this list could get long... |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1415 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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What happened to the cam is that it doesn't work properly with the fuel injection. Its funny how you can research something to death....and then find that one last piece of information AFTER you've finished the project haha. The cam is fine, it just doesn't work for my application if I want a steady and fairly normal c.o. idle |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1415 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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mark tucker wrote: |
99% of failed parts are not the parts fault. everything needs preped and reworked before usage. especially new cams.and cylinders..and oh this list could get long... |
No problems like that...just not a good cam for ljetronic system |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1415 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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Lingwendil wrote: |
It was my understanding that the 2280 "cheater cam" was originally developed to give more power while still passing smog, or am I mistaken?
I know of two EFI california certs that run them without issue. |
Interesting. After my issue I found a couple people who used them but have to live with symptoms i don't care for. The idle speed needs to be 1100 to 1200 and timing way advanced at idle, then there's the problem of having timing way over 30 degrees at full advance. Talked to bus guys with the same issue |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7177 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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unitedracing wrote: |
Interesting. After my issue I found a couple people who used them but have to live with symptoms i don't care for. The idle speed needs to be 1100 to 1200 and timing way advanced at idle, then there's the problem of having timing way over 30 degrees at full advance. Talked to bus guys with the same issue |
Thatīs just because people are not using the inside of their skulls. - Pardon my french, but it really is. Its the typical slap together attitude. It is soo easy if you just look a little into it. - OK, that may be a somewhat arrogant statement. But it actually is.
A short recap. 1600-1776 cc. 2280 cam with L-jet:
Increase CR to at least 8-1, preferably 8,3-8,5. Again, as with carbed engines, the tighter the deck the better it runs.
Replace the L-jet endcastings with a set of aftermarket from say CB, or weld and modify a stock 1600 carb set. Get a set of new sleeves from the end casting to the intake plenum. (It fits from another car, but I forgot which. (Porsche 914 2,0 maybe) Some sort of aftermarket turbo sleeve will work well too)
Advance idle timing to 10-11 degrees idle and limit the advance in the other end to about 30 degrees. Then you can clean up idle emissions and steady up the idle.
Replace the stock cat1 with a newer aftermarket cat (If you need one) If you do not need it you can use say a nice stock style VS muffler instead. (Remember to order it with only one outlet.)
Adjust idle timing to 850-875. (925 if you have AC)
Adjust fuel pressure so you have the required AFR at WOT. Probably about 0,2 bar increase.
You most likjely need to tighten the spring on the flow door one notch so it limits the fuel on cruise and low rpm.
Thatīs actually about it apart from some fine tuning of course.
This will really wake up your L-jet and will bring it up from the factory 46 hp to around 60 hp with the F.i. heads. If you go with "carb" valve size (35,5*32) they typically pull around 65 hp and more upper rpm torque. Also, when dialed in it will run as cool or cooler than stock.
I have rebuilt a couple of these to "heavy" super beetle convertibles using this recipe. One I made 1776 cc and it runs very nice, pulling about 76 hp.
Edit. One of the reasons for needing 1000+ rpm idle is because they most likely have not increased the fuel pressure. Since the engine does not make exactly the same vacum at idle as a stock cammed engine does, the fuel allowance will then be less. So they increase the idle and the vacum equals. Also, depending on yearmodel the system may have a fixed pressure regulator. If so, it is no big deal. You just source one from a newer L-jet system from a BMW 316/318 (not 318 IS) Opel/Vauxhall Astra. You may even be able to get a universal one from the local Flaps dealer.
Another reason may be, that they still use the vacum retard on the distributor. That should be disconnected and only used if you have to pass an emission test, because that really f*cks up the idle. Running the engine at 10 degrees at idle cleans up the Co & Co2 tremendeously, but it increases the Nox level. It is not for certain that the engine will pass idle emission with that. As soon as you are rolling the Nox will fall to normal or less. (If you use a newer Cat it will most likely not be a problem, since they are rather efficient on that account)
Again, dependant on year and model there are a few of the distributors that can not be altered much inside. If you happen to have one of those you can convert a distributor from a 2,0 type 4 bus or a 1,9 WBX, OR go fancy and buy a 123 distributor or a CB Black box. If you need to pass an emission test the Black box is the choice since it has a wealth of tuning options.
If you want to do it the old fashioned way, then get a system from a 2 l. type 4 (CU) or a WBX, then you can take the entire system and use. By doing that you get idle stability control "for free" as it is built into the system already.
There are lots of options and ways to make it work well.
Hope this helps. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1415 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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Alstrup wrote: |
unitedracing wrote: |
Interesting. After my issue I found a couple people who used them but have to live with symptoms i don't care for. The idle speed needs to be 1100 to 1200 and timing way advanced at idle, then there's the problem of having timing way over 30 degrees at full advance. Talked to bus guys with the same issue |
Thatīs just because people are not using the inside of their skulls. - Pardon my french, but it really is. Its the typical slap together attitude. It is soo easy if you just look a little into it. - OK, that may be a somewhat arrogant statement. But it actually is.
A short recap. 1600-1776 cc. 2280 cam with L-jet:
Increase CR to at least 8-1, preferably 8,3-8,5. Again, as with carbed engines, the tighter the deck the better it runs.
Replace the L-jet endcastings with a set of aftermarket from say CB, or weld and modify a stock 1600 carb set. Get a set of new sleeves from the end casting to the intake plenum. (It fits from another car, but I forgot which. (Porsche 914 2,0 maybe) Some sort of aftermarket turbo sleeve will work well too)
Advance idle timing to 10-11 degrees idle and limit the advance in the other end to about 30 degrees. Then you can clean up idle emissions and steady up the idle.
Replace the stock cat1 with a newer aftermarket cat (If you need one) If you do not need it you can use say a nice stock style VS muffler instead. (Remember to order it with only one outlet.)
Adjust idle timing to 850-875. (925 if you have AC)
Adjust fuel pressure so you have the required AFR at WOT. Probably about 0,2 bar increase.
You most likjely need to tighten the spring on the flow door one notch so it limits the fuel on cruise and low rpm.
Thatīs actually about it apart from some fine tuning of course.
This will really wake up your L-jet and will bring it up from the factory 46 hp to around 60 hp with the F.i. heads. If you go with "carb" valve size (35,5*32) they typically pull around 65 hp and more upper rpm torque. Also, when dialed in it will run as cool or cooler than stock.
I have rebuilt a couple of these to "heavy" super beetle convertibles using this recipe. One I made 1776 cc and it runs very nice, pulling about 76 hp.
Edit. One of the reasons for needing 1000+ rpm idle is because they most likely have not increased the fuel pressure. Since the engine does not make exactly the same vacum at idle as a stock cammed engine does, the fuel allowance will then be less. So they increase the idle and the vacum equals. Also, depending on yearmodel the system may have a fixed pressure regulator. If so, it is no big deal. You just source one from a newer L-jet system from a BMW 316/318 (not 318 IS) Opel/Vauxhall Astra. You may even be able to get a universal one from the local Flaps dealer.
Another reason may be, that they still use the vacum retard on the distributor. That should be disconnected and only used if you have to pass an emission test, because that really f*cks up the idle. Running the engine at 10 degrees at idle cleans up the Co & Co2 tremendeously, but it increases the Nox level. It is not for certain that the engine will pass idle emission with that. As soon as you are rolling the Nox will fall to normal or less. (If you use a newer Cat it will most likely not be a problem, since they are rather efficient on that account)
Again, dependant on year and model there are a few of the distributors that can not be altered much inside. If you happen to have one of those you can convert a distributor from a 2,0 type 4 bus or a 1,9 WBX, OR go fancy and buy a 123 distributor or a CB Black box. If you need to pass an emission test the Black box is the choice since it has a wealth of tuning options.
If you want to do it the old fashioned way, then get a system from a 2 l. type 4 (CU) or a WBX, then you can take the entire system and use. By doing that you get idle stability control "for free" as it is built into the system already.
There are lots of options and ways to make it work well. Helps yes, thank you. However I may not have stated my original intention at the beginning of this. I actually wanted to stay pretty much stock as built. I had issues identifying specs from the original cam used in an ljetronic beetle and did a ton of research into a replacement cam that was slightly better than stock but not to the point of modding everything else to make it work. I think that point was missed in the original advice given but live, learn and I can easily build another this winter. I'm really just trying to figure out what cam I should use on a stock rebuild at this point but am having trouble finding specs...and if it was the same as used say on the carb 74 bugs. I doubt it with what I've learned. If you have any insight on that I'd appreciate it.
Hope this helps. |
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robcy04 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2018 Posts: 207 Location: FL
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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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I have recently rebuilt 2 different 79 FI engines. Both are all stock except #2280 cams, electronic ignition, and a sporty exhaust. Both were adjusted as stock and run normally. The #2280 provides a little more top end so its just a little better than stock. I always set timing to 32 total ,and let idle fall where it may. I also set idle at 850-900, and the engine starts easily and settles smoothly. On one of them I removed the FI and installed a set of 34ICT's, due to constant wiring issues. That made a huge difference but it still runs out of breath at 5K. The issue with doing anything to the stock FI engines is limited by the heads, and their tiny ports/valves. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7177 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:25 am Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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If you install the 2280 and do nothing else, apart from the exhaust, there will be only minor gain. Theoreticly the engine will run lean at WOT, but maybe the stock F.i. end pieces limit the air flow so that it is within the adjustment window of the O2 sensor. I have never tried exactly that, so I donīt know. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1415 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:07 am Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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Alstrup wrote: |
If you install the 2280 and do nothing else, apart from the exhaust, there will be only minor gain. Theoreticly the engine will run lean at WOT, but maybe the stock F.i. end pieces limit the air flow so that it is within the adjustment window of the O2 sensor. I have never tried exactly that, so I donīt know. |
Understood...but there is no O2 sensor on the ljetronic, in the application we're talking about. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7177 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:39 am Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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Okeey, - varius models. Then you should definitely check the afr especially at WOT.
On the other hand. If it has no O2 sensor it is that much easier to do a ball park fuel adjustment by simply playing with the fuel pressure and flow door spring tension. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1415 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:47 am Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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Alstrup wrote: |
unitedracing wrote: |
Interesting. After my issue I found a couple people who used them but have to live with symptoms i don't care for. The idle speed needs to be 1100 to 1200 and timing way advanced at idle, then there's the problem of having timing way over 30 degrees at full advance. Talked to bus guys with the same issue |
Thatīs just because people are not using the inside of their skulls. - Pardon my french, but it really is. Its the typical slap together attitude. It is soo easy if you just look a little into it. - OK, that may be a somewhat arrogant statement. But it actually is.
A short recap. 1600-1776 cc. 2280 cam with L-jet:
Increase CR to at least 8-1, preferably 8,3-8,5. Again, as with carbed engines, the tighter the deck the better it runs.
Replace the L-jet endcastings with a set of aftermarket from say CB, or weld and modify a stock 1600 carb set. Get a set of new sleeves from the end casting to the intake plenum. (It fits from another car, but I forgot which. (Porsche 914 2,0 maybe) Some sort of aftermarket turbo sleeve will work well too)
Advance idle timing to 10-11 degrees idle and limit the advance in the other end to about 30 degrees. Then you can clean up idle emissions and steady up the idle.
Replace the stock cat1 with a newer aftermarket cat (If you need one) If you do not need it you can use say a nice stock style VS muffler instead. (Remember to order it with only one outlet.)
Adjust idle timing to 850-875. (925 if you have AC)
Adjust fuel pressure so you have the required AFR at WOT. Probably about 0,2 bar increase.
You most likjely need to tighten the spring on the flow door one notch so it limits the fuel on cruise and low rpm.
Thatīs actually about it apart from some fine tuning of course.
This will really wake up your L-jet and will bring it up from the factory 46 hp to around 60 hp with the F.i. heads. If you go with "carb" valve size (35,5*32) they typically pull around 65 hp and more upper rpm torque. Also, when dialed in it will run as cool or cooler than stock.
I have rebuilt a couple of these to "heavy" super beetle convertibles using this recipe. One I made 1776 cc and it runs very nice, pulling about 76 hp.
Edit. One of the reasons for needing 1000+ rpm idle is because they most likely have not increased the fuel pressure. Since the engine does not make exactly the same vacum at idle as a stock cammed engine does, the fuel allowance will then be less. So they increase the idle and the vacum equals. Also, depending on yearmodel the system may have a fixed pressure regulator. If so, it is no big deal. You just source one from a newer L-jet system from a BMW 316/318 (not 318 IS) Opel/Vauxhall Astra. You may even be able to get a universal one from the local Flaps dealer.
Another reason may be, that they still use the vacum retard on the distributor. That should be disconnected and only used if you have to pass an emission test, because that really f*cks up the idle. Running the engine at 10 degrees at idle cleans up the Co & Co2 tremendeously, but it increases the Nox level. It is not for certain that the engine will pass idle emission with that. As soon as you are rolling the Nox will fall to normal or less. (If you use a newer Cat it will most likely not be a problem, since they are rather efficient on that account)
Again, dependant on year and model there are a few of the distributors that can not be altered much inside. If you happen to have one of those you can convert a distributor from a 2,0 type 4 bus or a 1,9 WBX, OR go fancy and buy a 123 distributor or a CB Black box. If you need to pass an emission test the Black box is the choice since it has a wealth of tuning options.
If you want to do it the old fashioned way, then get a system from a 2 l. type 4 (CU) or a WBX, then you can take the entire system and use. By doing that you get idle stability control "for free" as it is built into the system already.
There are lots of options and ways to make it work well.
Hope this helps. |
It actually did help...and did have to do with using my skull or lack thereof! I tore the engine back down recently. The cam looks great but the lifters were a little different story. ( we talked about the Engle lifters in the other thread). When purchasing parts for my rebuild I decided to go with AA heads. I asked and was informed that the chamber was 52CCs but never measured for myself (not using my brain) Well, just measured and surprise I get 61cc. Using the CB calculator I was somewhere around 7.3:1 compression with my deck height. I've since been given a set of low mile original heads so they are going in along with CB single HD springs. From everything I've researched this should be good. My only wildcard is the springs now. Some advice is to use factory springs since I won't rev past 4500. I felt the CB set was a good compromise as they don't have a killer seat pressure like some do. And I'll double check the fuel pressure again as well. Thanks again for your help. |
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APPLEGREENVW Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2003 Posts: 2379 Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
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spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:46 am Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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unitedracing wrote: |
Good morning. Has anyone ever figured out if the fuel injection cam is any different than the earlier carb cams? I have 3 core FI cases and all have cam number 113 109 101f. After trying a 2280 cam in a recent rebuild (failed experiment) I'm going back all stock, however looking for recommendations on a stock or near stock replacement. |
........................................................................................................................from this post you wanted to know if the FI cams were differnt from the vw motors with a carb . no one posted if the cams were differnt . i dont know .but i would like to know if there is a differnts .all i know about the FI heads they have small int.and ex valves . if you installed heads with bigger valves and the 2280 cam . that might have made your motor run bad . it sounds like you would have to spend a lot of money and a lot of time .to make the motor run like you want it to with the 2280 cam . you must ask your self would it be worth it to spend all that money . if the out come would only be a small improvement in power .if it was me. i would put the stock heads back on and stock cam and enjoy your vw .and maybe put your money and 2280 cam in to building you a better motor with a carb or carbs on it .if you want more power .just my two cents spencerfvee
Last edited by spencerfvee on Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1415 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:54 am Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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spencerfvee wrote: |
unitedracing wrote: |
Good morning. Has anyone ever figured out if the fuel injection cam is any different than the earlier carb cams? I have 3 core FI cases and all have cam number 113 109 101f. After trying a 2280 cam in a recent rebuild (failed experiment) I'm going back all stock, however looking for recommendations on a stock or near stock replacement. |
........................................................................................................................from this post you wanted to know if the FI cams were differnt from the vw motors with carb . no one posted if they were differnt . i dont know .but i would like to know if there is a differnts .all i know about the FI heads have small int.and ex valves . if you installed heads with bigger valves and the 2280 cam . that might made your motor run bad . it sounds like you would spend a lot of money and a lot of time .to make the motor run like you want it to with the 2280 cam . you must ask your self would it be worth it . if the out come would only be a small improvement in power .if it was me i would put the stock heads back on and stock cam .and maybe build you a better motor with a carb or carbs on it .if you want more power .just my two cents spencerfvee |
Thanks. I really wasn't after more power, just a little more efficiency if that makes sense. I had been given lots of advice to basically never use a stock cam when there are better choices now for an otherwise stock motor. Also from what I've found since the FI cams are the same as the carb, or extremely close. My issue seems to be I hadn't properly checked my compression ratio. It was too low for the cam. I have gone back to original FI heads. Fortunately I don't have a lot of dollars tied up in this except the china heads. These will be used for a spare long block to be sold eventually. |
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spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:06 am Post subject: Re: 1975-1979 camshaft...different specs? |
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unitedracing wrote: |
spencerfvee wrote: |
unitedracing wrote: |
Good morning. Has anyone ever figured out if the fuel injection cam is any different than the earlier carb cams? I have 3 core FI cases and all have cam number 113 109 101f. After trying a 2280 cam in a recent rebuild (failed experiment) I'm going back all stock, however looking for recommendations on a stock or near stock replacement. |
........................................................................................................................from this post you wanted to know if the FI cams were differnt from the vw motors with carb . no one posted if they were differnt . i dont know .but i would like to know if there is a differnts .all i know about the FI heads have small int.and ex valves . if you installed heads with bigger valves and the 2280 cam . that might made your motor run bad . it sounds like you would spend a lot of money and a lot of time .to make the motor run like you want it to with the 2280 cam . you must ask your self would it be worth it . if the out come would only be a small improvement in power .if it was me i would put the stock heads back on and stock cam .and maybe build you a better motor with a carb or carbs on it .if you want more power .just my two cents spencerfvee |
Thanks. I really wasn't after more power, just a little more efficiency if that makes sense. I had been given lots of advice to basically never use a stock cam when there are better choices now for an otherwise stock motor. Also from what I've found since the FI cams are the same as the carb, or extremely close. My issue seems to be I hadn't properly checked my compression ratio. It was too low for the cam. I have gone back to original FI heads. Fortunately I don't have a lot of dollars tied up in this except the china heads. These will be used for a spare long block to be sold eventually. |
.................................................................................................................thanks for the info on the cams . when i would rebuild a stock motor. they all ways ran better . with new rebuilt parts. . good luck i hope your motor works out for you. and by reading your posts on this forum. you do know. what your doing on your motor rebuild |
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