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FlyAU98
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Milton, FL
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 Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:51 am Post subject: Wrong Distributor? |
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I reached out to Tim at Volkbitz about buying a new carb...and he pointed out that I might not have the original distributor on my engine.
I have some hesitation issues that I chalked up to the EMPI carb...primarily taking off from a stop...often takes some fancy footwork to keep the engine running and keep from being deathly slow in the intersection... Also a little bit on hard acceleration (getting on an on-ramp to the interstate) or accelerating out of a corner.
I'm happy to buy the right stuff to get the engine running as well as possible. Would upgrading (or returning?) to a SVDA be beneficial for me?
1972 Super Beetle - as far as I know, the engine internals are stock.
Here is what I'm working with:
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1972 Super Beetle |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76904
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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Looks like you have a H30/31PICT which is an aftermarket carb. The distributor looks to be a 205K or 205M which is for a 66-68 engine. They can work together.
Your engine is a AE which is a 72.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Looks like you have a H30/31PICT which is an aftermarket carb. |
I think if he had a H30/31PICT carb that he'd need an adapter for his dual port center section; and I do not see an adapter in his photo.
My own 1600cc DP engine has the H30/31PICT on an adapter for its DP manifold. Here's mine (with a vintage German 009 distributor).
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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FlyAU98
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Milton, FL
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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On closer inspection, the carb appears to be a EMPI 34 Pict 3:
Here is what I can see of the numbers on the installed distributor:
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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You have a mismatch with that 34 PICT carburetor and vacuum only distributor pairing. The key digits to know which distributor are just out of view. Try reinstalling the SVDA and timing it correctly.
Since you've been in touch with Volkzbitz have him restore a German carburetor for you. A 30 PICT series and that distributor can be tuned to work together, the 34 PICT Empi, not.
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Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Last edited by tasb on Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FlyAU98
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Milton, FL
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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I don’t have any of the old parts...no original carb, no different distributer.
That’s what I’m doing here...trying to figure out what is right if that is predicted to make a difference...so I can buy and install the correct parts.
I’ll try and see if I can get a better look at the installed distributer numbers in the daylight...
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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30 PICT 1 = 113 905 205 K
30 PICT 2 = 113 905 205 M
30 PICT 3 = 113 905 205 T
The problem with a 34 PICT 3 is finding a good reliable SVDA that's going to last in the long run like the above pairings can/will.
After enlarging the pic I'm seeing Bosch# 0 231 137 021= VW# 113 905 205 M pair it to a 30 PICT 2 German Solex. If you don't have an adaptor plate to go under the carburetor be sure to ask Volkzbitz for one.
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Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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FlyAU98
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Milton, FL
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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| tasb wrote: |
The problem with a 34 PICT 3 is finding a good reliable SVDA that's going to last in the long run like the above pairings can/will.
After enlarging the pic I'm seeing Bosch# 0 231 137 021= VW# 113 905 205 M pair it to a 30 PICT 2 German Solex. If you don't have an adaptor plate to go under the carburetor be sure to ask Volkzbitz for one. |
I was able to jam my phone in around the fuel lines and get a picture of the obscured part of the distributor...it definitely is a 205 M.
I understand that buying a rebuilt carb (from an older, different engine) to match the incorrect distributor would likely result in a smoother engine...but wouldn't it also result in reduced available power from the engine, while opening up a can of worms with jetting. Another thread I read suggested that (at least on the 30 Pict 3) the accelerator pump push rod doesn't fit right with the adapter and mounting.
Unfortunately or not, most of the miles on my Beetle are on the Interstate...so having what little horsepower the engine can make is of some importance.
I think the biggest concern I have though is Frankensteing the motor together and not being able to tune it right without having a series of notes attached to cancel out the shop manual instructions.
I'm not a full time mechanic, and though I have some fairly skilled help, I want to keep this as simple as possible (which is what I mistakenly thought I was doing by searching out a German carb).
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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| FlyAU98 wrote: |
Unfortunately or not, most of the miles on my Beetle are on the Interstate...so having what little horsepower the engine can make is of some importance.
I think the biggest concern I have though is Frankensteing the motor together and not being able to tune it right without having a series of notes attached to cancel out the shop manual instructions. |
Here is what you appear to have:
AE case and intake suggests you have a 1600DP engine. These only ever came with the larger 34Pict carbs (or FI).
Empi 34Pict-3 aftermarket carb. While Empis are probably not the most reliable carb, if it is working well you can continue to run it. These carbs produce a ported vacuum advance signal proper for an SVDA or DVDA distributor.
SVA (large can vacuum-only) distributor. These were never meant to be paired with the later 34Pict carbs. They are a good match for a 28~31Pict carb which used venturi vacuum for the vacuum advance. Your 34Pict does not have a venturi vacuum port to match this distributor. Connecting this to the 34Pict's ported vacuum means it is either at zero advance or at full advance... nothing in between. These distributors reach max advance at around 5in-Hg. The 34Pict produces up to 20in-Hg of vacuum as soon as the throttle is opened!
Since you do a lot of freeway driving you probably want to keep the 34Pict carb which is better sized for running the 1600DP at high rpms. So my suggestion would be to swap the distributor you have installed for a SVDA distributor. The SVDA shoudl actually improve your fuel economy at higher cruise rpms as the ported vacuum will increase timing while in cruise. Either a used/rebuilt VW/Bosch SVDA distributor (best option; expensive)... or an aftermarket SVDA distributor (less reliable; less expensive).
Here are some links for you to look at:
OE SVDA distributors:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2345269
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2457450
Aftermarket SVDA distributors:
https://www.jbugs.com/product/186504.html
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-d186504/make/volkswagen/model/beetle/year/1974
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D043%2D905%2D205
I'm not recommending any of the above links over another. They are just the first links that showed up when I went looking. I would recommend the quality of a rebuilt Germany distributor over any new aftermarket distributor, but I can understand folks choosing to gamble on the cheaper aftermarket parts. If I were buying the aftermarket distributor I would look at the Pertronix SVDA with Ignitor electronic ignition. It is probably the most consistent aftermarket SVDA you will find.
When you have a properly matched carb + distributor in good working order you will be happy with the smooth engine performance. A stock 1600DP engine will never feel like a 2.0L engine, but smooth acceleration should not be out of reach.
If you have a stockish 1600DP engine + 34Pict carb + SVDA (205/034) distributor you should be able to tune your engine the same as a 1974 US 48-state manual transmission car. This model year+transmission came with this combo.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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FlyAU98
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Milton, FL
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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Thanks.
I'm not against spending the money to get the right parts to make it run as well as it can. I drive the car a few times a week and want to be able to enjoy it, with minimum hassle.
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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With the added information about your driving habits I would agree with Ashman40, 100%. I have successfully run 30 PICT carbs on 1600 dual ports but you do loose a bit of top end speed. Smooth reliable performance has always trumped top end speed for me- it's a VW in it's original form.
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Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Last edited by tasb on Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6593
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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Work with Tim on getting the correct carburetor. Then you can play around with the distributor.
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FlyAU98
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Milton, FL
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| Work with Tim on getting the correct carburetor. Then you can play around with the distributor. |
I have the correct carburetor now...its just an EMPI... Right?
Tim is behind on German 34 PICT 3s right now, so I suspect that part is on hold...ideally I can find a proper distributor before then.
Reading about the pitfalls of a mismatched carb/dist, I think that my existing 34 PICT 3 EMPI carb is likely functioning ok. That ok may not be as good as a refurbed German 34 PICT 3, but I kinda thought that fixing the known incorrect thing first might be the better way to go?
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ccowx
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2015
Posts: 661
Location: Whitehorse Yukon
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Wrong Distributor? |
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I agree with you there, getting the correct distributor is likely the quickest way to happiness, smooth running and the best power. You can get a cheap SVDA from California imports or similar and be going well for probably under $100. Problem is that it will be a cheap chinese made copy and no guarantees it won't need a bit of tweaking or cleaning or what have you. Better is Pertronix I am told, but still not great.
Your best bet is to find an original german Bosch ditributor and have it rebuilt by Tim or one of the other similar services offered here. Keep the Empi carb for now and see what happens. As for fiddling with the carb, I get the impression your engine is pretty much stock, so you should be able to just put in the stock jets, maybe a bit richer on the main, and be close enough now. You can alsways do a fine tune later.
Chris |
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