Newly rebuilt engine spun fine yesterday before installing..

[DevinHite]

So I rebuilt a motor, test spun it yesterday and many times before before putting the motor in to the beetle. After we got the motor in, the motor just won’t spin, at all! I had 3 people yesterday helping me and we all test spun it beforehand. We wanted to make sure.

I dropped the motor today, thinking maybe the transmission was bad, but everything is fine with that.

I’ve tried to hand spin it, use a screw driver and a hammer. Everything!

Someone give me some insight what would have caused this.

I mean IT IS NOT MOVING!!

Any help would be amazing! A check list or something where to start

[DevinHite]

Update: I pulled the pressure plate, clutch and flywheel.

When I pulled the flywheel it spun freely. I then realized when I tightened it down It would be too tight to spin.

Now my next question is, if I put too many shims (2 in there now) will it keep the flywheel too tight? There isn’t a lot of end play now, are shims necessary if the end play is very minor?

[sjbartnik]

You need 3 shims.

Sounds like you did not set your end play up correctly.

End play spec is .003" - .005", wear limit is .006"

Shims come in varying thicknesses. Bentley book has the formula for how to determine your shim thicknesses to get end play correct.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[DevinHite]

[sjbartnik]

The fact that you haven't yet told us what your end play measurement was leads me to believe that you didn't measure it.

That's kind of critical, so you will need to ensure that you measure it and set it up properly.

Get yourself a set of shims of various thicknesses from a VW supplier, then mic them so you know their actual thickness (sometimes the actual thickness will vary quite a bit from the number stamped on the shim).

Then follow the procedure in Bentley for setting end play.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[DevinHite]

[Cusser]

If you cannot obtain enough (and correct) end play with even the three thinnest shims, a machine shop can machine a little off your flywheel snout to allow that.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[leowagen]

You need to get your end play sorted. the correct thrust lip thickness, with the correct saddle thickness, with the correct shims in place.

The solution depends on your budget. If time and money allow you to, I'd reopen the case and have the thrust checked by a competent VW machinist.

If you can't afford it, what I will suggest will cause severe itching in professional engine builders and experienced mechanics, which I understand and agree with!!! Please don't kill me. I'm just handing a suggetion based on the chance of short budget, low resource rebuild....

If things get tight when you torque your flywheel, somethings bigger than it should, and it for sure will be the N°1 bearing thrust flange (flywheel side flange of the bearing). You need to measure very well everything so you can tell how thicker is your N°1 bearing thrust lip. Please use an instrument capable of a reading down to 0,01 mm or its inch equivalent. Then get a glass bigger than the bearing and a very fine grit sand paper and VERY VERY lightly sand the flywheel side of it. It should be just a tiny bit for recovering the space for your shims + spec end play.

Measurements suggestion: Install the flywheel with no shims. Measure end play. Now substract from that number the spec end play you have as a goal. This result will be the thickness you need to achieve with the shims.

Disclaimer: This is what I would do if in a tight budget, with limited resources and no chance to go to a shop for having things done correctly. If you over do it, you will ruin your bearing. If you don't sand it as lightly as you can, you run the risk of going out of the plane and producing a bearing that will not be parallel to the flywheel neck, having some secondary issues which I cant imagine... as vibration and clutch issues. If you go this way, lay the glass in a flat table and gently move the bearing in circular motion against the sand paper. I must emphasize VERY lightly.

The risk of going wrong is quite high if you are not very very careful. So think about it cold headed, balance your risks, and make your choice.

Do you have the right end play measurement instrument? if not, I would suggest to invest a bit in it. Your future projects will thank it.
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Frankenwagen: full 1957 pan, under late 60s Brazilian body

[DevinHite]

[leowagen]

[Busstom]

Yes, you MUST have at LEAST 3 shims.

[[email protected]]

The number shims used makes no difference at all. Remember, engines aren't smart, they don't know how many shims are in there. All you need to be concerned with is having the correct end play. I have used 2, 3 and 4 shims on engines before with no problem at all.
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Cylinder Head Reference Sheet

[Max Welton]

I don't think the amount of end-play is the only factor. Each shim provides one oil film between the #1 bearing and the flywheel. Three shims means four oil films. Two shims means only three films.

VW chose 3 shims. I wonder why.

Max

[viiking]

Most probably that combining three shims covered every conceivable run out of the crankshaft to give the correct spec. Given the block and crankshaft would be manufactured to a tolerance range the final fitting would need to allow for all of these. VW did not want to have 20 different size shims due to the complexity of holding additional parts and part numbers plus the possibility of mixups when installing so they found that they could accomplish it with three only.

As far as I am concerned there is no reason that one shim machined correctly wouldn’t work! But this is totally impractical to do.

As far as using three shims? Only conceivable reason is that the wear on each of three shims would be less than in two so less likely to thin out one of the thinnest shims? But I think that’s probably not right. So long as the running clearance is correct for 2 or 1 or 3 shims I don’t think it matters. The argument of oil thickness layer on each face is of insignificant proportion in my opinion to make any substantial thickness issues.
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1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3

[Busstom]

Ray Greenwood does a great sermon on WHY there must be at least 3 shims, and I can't find it right now (nor can I recite it).
It's something about having a viscous "clutchy" component between the flywheel and thrust bearing; in theory, I think the shim adjacent the flywheel is sort of clinging to the flywheel, and the shim adjacent the thrust bearing is sort of clinging to the thrust bearing, and the middle shim (of the three) was sort-of the neutral element that provided viscous oil cushion between the other two parts (the remaining two shims).
Maybe Ray will come along and spice up this debate

[leowagen]

As I said above... you can use as an example the 356 porsche with only one shim.... or go to my personal case when I got my beetle with 6 of them... What I read so far, is that 3 shims ensure the relative movement of the center shim in an oil-shim-oil sandwich. I'd try to go with what the workshop manual says, which is summarized in go with axial play as stated while having 3 shims.

In my opinion, more shims with a good axial play mean you're trying t live with an already out of spec engine, and less shims with good axial play, means you're really on the tight side of your build. I'd prefer to live with more shims rather than less. To be out of spec in the tight side I believe is tempting the destiny and risking to seize it when things heat up and expand, while being out of spec on the looser end means you know your engine is already worn and if treated nicely will last many months or years more; this way you know were you're standing....
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Frankenwagen: full 1957 pan, under late 60s Brazilian body

[67rustavenger]