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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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do chemicals like stabil help with the corrosion etc? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Volswagon Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 299 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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The storage tanks at gas stations end up with ethanol/water sludge layer at the bottom. If they just got a delivery, there's no telling what you're feeding your precious ride.
I have bought Barricade lines for my Bus project. I have had a 5/16" rotary pump mounted where the old F.I. pump was for years, using almost 10 feet of fuel line. I am pondering better routing and stepping between sizes without much luck so far. _________________ I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight=
Last edited by Volswagon on Thu May 24, 2018 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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SGKent wrote: |
do chemicals like stabil help with the corrosion etc? |
It "might". Stabil is 95% "deodorized" kerosene.....if you pull up the CAS # on its SDS sheet.
That alone is a high flash point, easily blendable solvent that keeps the finer aeromatics of gasoline from evaporating.
Sadly the new SDS format allows the mfg to keep the other 5% ingredient a secret as long as its not toxic to people or the environment or reactive. Usually that means its either a surfactant or a soap or a salt.....used to keep the main product in solution.
So.....from what I have seen of kerosene just lately....when it saturates with moisture and ages....it creates a really nasty corrosive varnish (see my notes on transmission part damage from 90% kerosene).....my best guess is that it will not help to prevent corrosion created by a combination of water absorption and PH change and ion recombination.....though Stabil does do what its supposed to....stabilize fuel volatility.
There are a lot of complex chemical reactions with water and most alcohols....not all....but most. In fact....the plastics and rubbers have less issues than plated parts do...depending on what they are plated with.
Its why the OEMs have a no-brainer winner....for the fuel lines.....with nylon. That is now no longer a worry all the way up to 100% ethanol....and even 100% methanol scores a B with nylon fuel lines. Back in the original gasohol days...it was methanol and not ethanol that killed virtually every plastic and plating in the automotive industry. Ray |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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Any thoughts on the polyurethane fuel line like Aicraft Spruce sells? _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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TomWesty wrote: |
Any thoughts on the polyurethane fuel line like Aicraft Spruce sells? |
Except for a long ago...and should have been superceded by logic......spec......urethane should have been dropped as a fuel line ages ago. It does fine with ethanol, gasoline.....but has issues with many oils and some solvents common in gas additives.
Its good to about 200° F maximum and constant to about 150°F
It hardens up about 3% a year even on its own with no fuel. Its also low pressure only.
Just not the right material. Its equivalent to a silicone fuel line but stiffer and higher pressure with shorter lifespan. Ray |
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jack-o-van Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: Milwaukee
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
I will probably be seen as an asshole for this comment.....but thats fine because I am an asshole. |
Hey Ray - maybe this should be in the "stupid questions" thread, but what's a "fuel rail" - you mentioned it in a post earlier. I could'a looked it up but would rather have your answer than Wikipedia's.
And I love that line of yours! Somehow I gotta work it into my signature like I did with Aeromech's comment. Consider me a fan!
- Jack. _________________
If he meant it of me, he would have been "spot on" when AeroMech wrote: |
in my opinion you don't know shit |
And I love what raygreenwood wrote: |
I will probably be seen as an asshole for this comment.....but thats fine because I am an asshole. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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jack-o-van wrote: |
raygreenwood wrote: |
I will probably be seen as an asshole for this comment.....but thats fine because I am an asshole. |
Hey Ray - maybe this should be in the "stupid questions" thread, but what's a "fuel rail" - you mentioned it in a post earlier. I could'a looked it up but would rather have your answer than Wikipedia's.
And I love that line of yours! Somehow I gotta work it into my signature like I did with Aeromech's comment. Consider me a fan!
- Jack. |
An example of a crude "fuel rail" on our cars....fuel injected buses, type 3s and 4s.....the metal fuel line parts on each side of the engine with the little stubs that feed the injectors....is technically a fuel rail.
On modern fuel injected water cooled cars starting in the mid to late 70s......instead of plumbing hoses all the way to the injectors bolted to the intake manifold.....they went to solid metal......and later injection molded plastic.....precision tube assemblies that bolt on to the head.....like a rail.
The inlet fuel line is bolted to one end.....the fuel pressure regulatot and return line at the other. There are baffles inside in many of them to make sure each injector gets the same flow volume and pressure.
The injectors went to "bayonet" style....where each end of the injector...inlet and tip...are o-ringed.....and snap into the fuel rail. The rail is then bolted to the head or intake manifold...clamping the injector in between.
This is an example of a fuel rail
https://www.ebay.com/i/323277511235?chn=ps&ul_...f0fffcb9d6
Ray |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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#36 Fuel rail
Thnx to mayor ratwell
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50254
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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The term "fuel rail" comes from the fuel setup on a Diesel engine, where the fuel was fed through a metal manifold or rail to the injectors. There was a second fuel return rail. When FI appeared that term "fuel rail" was applied to the somewhat similar system. |
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jack-o-van Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: Milwaukee
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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a manifold?
- Jack _________________
If he meant it of me, he would have been "spot on" when AeroMech wrote: |
in my opinion you don't know shit |
And I love what raygreenwood wrote: |
I will probably be seen as an asshole for this comment.....but thats fine because I am an asshole. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50254
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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jack-o-van wrote: |
a manifold?
- Jack |
manifold: a pipe or chamber branching into several openings. |
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restocal63 Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2006 Posts: 224 Location: Malta
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mrbell321 Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2017 Posts: 36 Location: TX
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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Also to resurrect this thread, there was a comment earlier about nylon in the engine bay heating and expanding. Is this a theoretical concern or has it actually been observed?
I ask because, although the engine bay can get quite hot, fuel lines are carrying a pretty decent coolant(gasoline) inside them. I would think that would keep the temperatures of the lines well below the engine bay air temp? _________________ [url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate2-42413.png]Click to view image[/url]
1972 Type 2 (T2) mod. 221(1) |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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mrbell321 wrote: |
Also to resurrect this thread, there was a comment earlier about nylon in the engine bay heating and expanding. Is this a theoretical concern or has it actually been observed?
I ask because, although the engine bay can get quite hot, fuel lines are carrying a pretty decent coolant(gasoline) inside them. I would think that would keep the temperatures of the lines well below the engine bay air temp? |
In a bus its just not going to be a problem...except on say....a length of line in direct contact with the engine case or the sheet metal near the exhaust.
Even with the seal around the sheet metal....the air intakes on each side of bay window buses mean that your engjne bay stays relatively cool when running. I think others here at some point in time stated about 125° ish ...maybe 150 ish in hot weather. It will get hotter after shutdown....but as long as your fuel lines are not really in direct contact with heads or case.....it should not be be issue.
Just for reference.....the difference in my car....a 412....is that we have a fully sealed compartment....so we can routinely see 200° to 250° in hot weather.....so I will keep nylons out of the engine bay on my car but use it everywhere else.
Also....its not expansion you are worried about.....its deformation. The melt temperature of nylon 12 is about 255° to 260° F. So as long as its kept suspended components like between the 1/2 fuel rail and the CSV or even covered with a sheath around hot surfaces like the heads....it wipl be fine.
Yes...while running the fuel cools it just fine.....but if the outside comes into constant contact with anything over 250° F it can melt a dent or weak spot into it.
I answered a question about thst fuel line brand a while back. It should be fine. Ray |
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mrbell321 Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2017 Posts: 36 Location: TX
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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Ah, I didn't realize the compartment of a 412 was sealed. That's interesting... and I'm kinda glad I don't have to deal with that one!
And keeping the lines way from hot surfaces makes total sense, but it's a great callout. I wouldn't _intentionally_ mount fuel lines to a hot surface, but I can completely see myself, if you'll excuse my pun, in the heat of the moment thinking "Oh, it'll be fine"
...and then learning that it's not fine at all.
Thanks! _________________ [url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate2-42413.png]Click to view image[/url]
1972 Type 2 (T2) mod. 221(1) |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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mrbell321 wrote: |
Ah, I didn't realize the compartment of a 412 was sealed. That's interesting... and I'm kinda glad I don't have to deal with that one!
And keeping the lines way from hot surfaces makes total sense, but it's a great callout. I wouldn't _intentionally_ mount fuel lines to a hot surface, but I can completely see myself, if you'll excuse my pun, in the heat of the moment thinking "Oh, it'll be fine"
...and then learning that it's not fine at all.
Thanks! |
The sealed engine compartment of type 4 cars......is about 75% a great thing.....and about 25% a bad thing. In the 411/412.....100% of our cooling and intake air is pulled through a duct from louvers......so no need to have outside air inlet into the engine bay. It keeps it much cleaner, dryer and less issues with corrosion.
But.....its also much hotter as mentioned. So.....over time.....plastic and vinyl parts suffer at a higher rate.
Overall.....thinking about nylon line coming into the engine bay of a bus.....the only place y9u would really have a worry about foming into contact with a hot surface......is the line coming into and going out of the cold start valve. Asong as it stays kind of in the air running down to the 3/4 side injector fuel rails and does not get tucked under the runner to lay against the case or come into contact with the distributor.....all should be fine.
Ray |
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restocal63 Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2006 Posts: 224 Location: Malta
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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Dear Ray,
As usual many thanks for your detailed explanation, rather say a tutorial |
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