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nicholastanguma
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009
Posts: 92
Location: LA and SF
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 Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:48 pm Post subject: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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Long post, not for the faint of heart. Extremely useful info for some folks in here, nonetheless.
I live in Downtown Los Angeles, and can positively tell everyone that despite CA state's insanely corrupt and incompetent leadership, insanely leftist ideology, insanely high taxes, insanely high cost of living, and insanely irrational hatred for internal combustion engines supposedly withering away Mother Gaia, for an enthusiast of vintage autos and motos this place is a paradise.
By some outrageously paradoxical twist of circumstances, there are virtually no restrictions on pre-76 automobiles, and even fewer on motorcycles, and the vintage hot rod scenes here, whether of the Japanese dirtbike crowd, the 4x4 crowd, the American chopper crowd, the European cafe racer crowd, or the sportscar crowd, are enthusiastically embraced by practitioners from all across the socioeconomic spectrum, including police. People bring in and register out-of-state vintage vehicles all the time for restoration and restomodding, it's an enormously lucrative industry in California.
And thousands of people use the state's many registration businesses every year to bypass the snags and incompetence of the state DMV, these businesses are totally legal and out in the open. I daresay the CA DMV might even prefer that people pay these businesses for their services, as it will thin out the crowds of plebes that DMV drones have to deal with on a daily basis.
But as with all things wonderful, there are details which must be carefully noted or the wonderful things will no longer be wonderful.
Here's how this stuff works.
1) The NHTSA says 25 year old vehicles are legal to import into the USA, but the EPA says 21. Nonsensical, but the left and right hands do not want to talk, and that's just the way bureaucracy is sometimes.
2) Along with the NHTSA and EPA, California is regulated by the California Air Resources Board, aka CARB. Direct Import vehicles are vehicles that were manufactured outside the United States for which the original manufacturer did not obtain California or Federal certification. The EPA normally covers direct import vehicles under the ICI (Independent Commercial Importer) program, but if a vehicle is going to be registered in California it needs to meet California's Direct Import requirements.
3) Despite the EPA waiver for vehicles 21 years or older, any vehicle from 1968 or newer needs to meet California CARB for registration, and any vehicle from 1975 or newer needs to meet CA Direct Import standards, as well. 1968 to 1974 needs to meet United States EPA requirements that were in effect on the date of 11/15/1972. 1967 and older, no smog and no modifications or testing are required to register the vehicle in California. A vehicle model year 1975 or older does not need a smog (in use test) in California. So there is actually a 1 year gap between the two rules. 1975 would need to meet direct import requirements (FTP testing with a certified lab), but then would not need to be smogged after the initial direct import requirements are met.
4) Meeting California Direct Import requirements means more than just passing smog. FTP testing must be done at a certified lab, an expensive proposition.
- 1976 or newer, needs to be smogged in California every 2 years.
- 1975 or newer, must meet Direct Import requirements (FTP testing).
- 1968 to 1974, exempt from smog but still needs to meet USEPA requirements in effect on the specific date of 11/15/1972.
- 1967 and older, no smog and no modifications or testing are required to register the vehicle in California.
5) In summary!
- Technically for the entire USA: vehicle over 25 years old = NHTSA- FMVSS exempt.
- Also technically for the entire USA: vehicle over 21 years old = EPA exempt in original OEM configuration.
- California specifically: vehicle 1968 or newer, registration in California = you are screwed unless you have the time and patience and money to wade through the CA bureaucracy yourself, or you've got enough expendable income to pay one of California's vintage vehicle import companies to handle all the bureaucratic hassle on your behalf.
From what I can tell according to my research, all of the above equally applies to both automobiles and motorcycles, although as far as I've been able to find no US state smog tests motorcycles of any year manufacture, vintage or not.
Important sidenote: I stress that importation and registration are two completely different things. The EPA and the DOT are not friends, and CARB barely even talks to either of them; just like individual bureaucrats, bureaucratic institutions want to be the only chief in the tribe, none of them want to rule by senate, they all want to be king. Just because you were successful in getting registration through the DMV does not mean the car or motorbike was legally imported, and just because you legally imported a car also does not mean that you are able to register a car where you live.
Given all of the above, you may be wondering how restomodding can be such an unstoppable culture and thus lucrative industry in California if any modifications away from original OEM specs are technically illegal. Well, those technicalities apply at the time of importation and registration. Remember that, presently, any pre-76 automobile legally registered in California is exempt from smog testing (motorcycles of any year are presently smog exempt). So after registration with CA DMV what you do with your vehicle is not going to be tested by any govt agency.
Ergo, even though it's technically illegal to IMPORT and/or REGISTER a modified old vehicle in California (or any US state), it's also technically legal to OWN such a vehicle. Essentially, after the fact of legal import into the USA and legal registration into a US state, what you do to your own vehicle is left unchecked provided the vehicle is sufficiently old enough to be exempt from yearly emissions and/or equipment testing.
The above is how regular joes are able to participate in the vintage restomodding scene in otherwise cost prohibitive California--they stick to purchasing vehicles that are already legally CA registered. Generally it's the wealthy enthusiasts that are paying for importations. For instance, according to Sean Morris of importavehicle.com, getting the legendary Nissan R34 legal for California is a heroic task of near impossibility. Near impossibility, mind you, not actual impossibility. OBD II is a requirement, for example, so expect to pay about 75k USD for California compliance on an OBD II car. R32 GT-R compliance costs about 10k USD, and other cars cost anywhere from 5k and upward.
The bottom line in the People's Republik of Kalifornia currently is that there are no smog or equipment checks for any Kalifornia registered vehicles of pre-1976 vintage, but if you want to import a vehicle into Kalifornia from another country or even from another US State the only way to completely avoid being subject to Kalifornia's smog and equipment standards is to bring in an auto or moto that is pre-1968. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22640
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:36 am Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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This needs to be stickier into the FAQS, along with a line at the top.
* short version at bottom
( text)
Short version. If you don’t have the attention span to read through, don’t import a vehicle,
_________________
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wheel607
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2004
Posts: 1847
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:48 am Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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| Good info! |
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ALLWAGONS
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2000
Posts: 4186
Location: Pasadena CA/DTLA soon China
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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| nicholastanguma wrote: |
Long post, not for the faint of heart. Extremely useful info for some folks in here, nonetheless.
I live in Downtown Los Angeles, and can positively tell everyone that despite CA state's insanely corrupt and incompetent leadership, insanely leftist ideology, insanely high taxes, insanely high cost of living, and insanely irrational hatred for internal combustion engines supposedly withering away Mother Gaia, for an enthusiast of vintage autos and motos this place is a paradise.
By some outrageously paradoxical twist of circumstances, there are virtually no restrictions on pre-76 automobiles, and even fewer on motorcycles, and the vintage hot rod scenes here, whether of the Japanese dirtbike crowd, the 4x4 crowd, the American chopper crowd, the European cafe racer crowd, or the sportscar crowd, are enthusiastically embraced by practitioners from all across the socioeconomic spectrum, including police. People bring in and register out-of-state vintage vehicles all the time for restoration and restomodding, it's an enormously lucrative industry in California.
And thousands of people use the state's many registration businesses every year to bypass the snags and incompetence of the state DMV, these businesses are totally legal and out in the open. I daresay the CA DMV might even prefer that people pay these businesses for their services, as it will thin out the crowds of plebes that DMV drones have to deal with on a daily basis.
But as with all things wonderful, there are details which must be carefully noted or the wonderful things will no longer be wonderful.
Here's how this stuff works.
1) The NHTSA says 25 year old vehicles are legal to import into the USA, but the EPA says 21. Nonsensical, but the left and right hands do not want to talk, and that's just the way bureaucracy is sometimes.
2) Along with the NHTSA and EPA, California is regulated by the California Air Resources Board, aka CARB. Direct Import vehicles are vehicles that were manufactured outside the United States for which the original manufacturer did not obtain California or Federal certification. The EPA normally covers direct import vehicles under the ICI (Independent Commercial Importer) program, but if a vehicle is going to be registered in California it needs to meet California's Direct Import requirements.
3) Despite the EPA waiver for vehicles 21 years or older, any vehicle from 1968 or newer needs to meet California CARB for registration, and any vehicle from 1975 or newer needs to meet CA Direct Import standards, as well. 1968 to 1974 needs to meet United States EPA requirements that were in effect on the date of 11/15/1972. 1967 and older, no smog and no modifications or testing are required to register the vehicle in California. A vehicle model year 1975 or older does not need a smog (in use test) in California. So there is actually a 1 year gap between the two rules. 1975 would need to meet direct import requirements (FTP testing with a certified lab), but then would not need to be smogged after the initial direct import requirements are met.
4) Meeting California Direct Import requirements means more than just passing smog. FTP testing must be done at a certified lab, an expensive proposition.
- 1976 or newer, needs to be smogged in California every 2 years.
- 1975 or newer, must meet Direct Import requirements (FTP testing).
- 1968 to 1974, exempt from smog but still needs to meet USEPA requirements in effect on the specific date of 11/15/1972.
- 1967 and older, no smog and no modifications or testing are required to register the vehicle in California.
5) In summary!
- Technically for the entire USA: vehicle over 25 years old = NHTSA- FMVSS exempt.
- Also technically for the entire USA: vehicle over 21 years old = EPA exempt in original OEM configuration.
- California specifically: vehicle 1968 or newer, registration in California = you are screwed unless you have the time and patience and money to wade through the CA bureaucracy yourself, or you've got enough expendable income to pay one of California's vintage vehicle import companies to handle all the bureaucratic hassle on your behalf.
From what I can tell according to my research, all of the above equally applies to both automobiles and motorcycles, although as far as I've been able to find no US state smog tests motorcycles of any year manufacture, vintage or not.
Important sidenote: I stress that importation and registration are two completely different things. The EPA and the DOT are not friends, and CARB barely even talks to either of them; just like individual bureaucrats, bureaucratic institutions want to be the only chief in the tribe, none of them want to rule by senate, they all want to be king. Just because you were successful in getting registration through the DMV does not mean the car or motorbike was legally imported, and just because you legally imported a car also does not mean that you are able to register a car where you live.
Given all of the above, you may be wondering how restomodding can be such an unstoppable culture and thus lucrative industry in California if any modifications away from original OEM specs are technically illegal. Well, those technicalities apply at the time of importation and registration. Remember that, presently, any pre-76 automobile legally registered in California is exempt from smog testing (motorcycles of any year are presently smog exempt). So after registration with CA DMV what you do with your vehicle is not going to be tested by any govt agency.
Ergo, even though it's technically illegal to IMPORT and/or REGISTER a modified old vehicle in California (or any US state), it's also technically legal to OWN such a vehicle. Essentially, after the fact of legal import into the USA and legal registration into a US state, what you do to your own vehicle is left unchecked provided the vehicle is sufficiently old enough to be exempt from yearly emissions and/or equipment testing.
The above is how regular joes are able to participate in the vintage restomodding scene in otherwise cost prohibitive California--they stick to purchasing vehicles that are already legally CA registered. Generally it's the wealthy enthusiasts that are paying for importations. For instance, according to Sean Morris of importavehicle.com, getting the legendary Nissan R34 legal for California is a heroic task of near impossibility. Near impossibility, mind you, not actual impossibility. OBD II is a requirement, for example, so expect to pay about 75k USD for California compliance on an OBD II car. R32 GT-R compliance costs about 10k USD, and other cars cost anywhere from 5k and upward.
The bottom line in the People's Republik of Kalifornia currently is that there are no smog or equipment checks for any Kalifornia registered vehicles of pre-1976 vintage, but if you want to import a vehicle into Kalifornia from another country or even from another US State the only way to completely avoid being subject to Kalifornia's smog and equipment standards is to bring in an auto or moto that is pre-1968. |
Awesome Information, One question, what is someone as smart as you doing living in DTLA? California's other Hell !
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.
I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.
Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.
NON INFLUENCER APPROVED |
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nicholastanguma
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009
Posts: 92
Location: LA and SF
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
Awesome Information, One question, what is someone as smart as you doing living in DTLA? California's other Hell ! |
Your question is entirely understandable. First, I'll give you the short answer:
1) My work is in urban real estate development (skyscrapers, supermarkets, museums, apartments, gentrification, all that kind of infrastructural stuff) and Downtown Los Angeles is bursting with such opportunities.
2) I am positively addicted to vintage air cooled auto and moto culture.
I know it sounds completely impossible, but from my home in Downtown LA I can reach either paved twisty sportbike roads or dusty mountain dirtbike trails in 30 minutes or less, no exaggeration; and with legal lane filtering in California state and the SoCal region's 10-12 months of dry warm-to-hot weather I can ride or drive for fun almost any day of the year I want. I've got several racing tracks, both for roadracing and motocross, located anywhere from 30 minutes to 1.5 hours away. As an unapologetic urbanite I don't want to live in the countryside, and I don't want to live in the suburbs, I want dense dynamic city life right outside my front door--there is no other urban environment in the USA that can give me all of the ingredients I want in my day to day living besides LA.
Here's the long answer, and it comes with some fun videos. 
Setting aside the insanely leftist politics, the outrageously holier-than-thou virtue signaling of Hollywood, the astronomically high cost of everything from food to fuel, and the hordes of drug addled and mentally ill homeless, SoCal is a petrolhead paradise, especially for enthusiasts of vintage metal.
And every sort of motorhead subculture exists here, from hot rods to 4x4s to supercars to choppers to cafe racers to enduros, petrolhead culture here is a RELIGION. Outsiders don't realize it, but Los Angeles has SEVEN separate mountain ranges surrounding it on all sides, not to mention all the obvious desert landscapes. Outsiders only think of LA as the dense urban skyscraper core of Downtown and the endless bland anonymity of the LA suburban ocean, but in reality LA is a very much an outdoor city with a bewildering offering of outdoor recreation opportunities, including those of the powersports variety.
No joke, there are still a few places here in Metropolitan LA where ethanol free gasoline can be had at the pump, and it's LEGAL. Not convenient to get, expensive as a mofo, but still available.
The Long Beach Grand Prix is North America's longest running major professional street race, held on the streets of Downtown Long Beach every year since 1975. For reference, Downtown Long Beach is within Metropolitan LA, and it's less than 30 minutes away from Downtown LA (assuming traffic hasn't gridlocked).
Once I learned how to navigate California's draconian motor vehicle laws by simply owning, modifying, and racing only vehicles that are so vintage the govt completely ignores them, my world became bright!
Every road and trail featured in this episode of MotoGeo I can reach from my house in DTLA in 30 minutes or less.
Link
This ep features a Norton Dominator being railed through the Santa Monica Mountains, a range reachable from Downtown LA in only an hour.
Link
And in this ep the campsite seen beginning at 17:30 is so close to Downtown LA that you can see the lights of DTLA in the background at 17:45. Yes, real camping, in a tent, on natural ground. 
Link
I see you currently reside in Pasadena, so I suppose most, if not all, of what I've just written you already know. |
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amishman
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2004
Posts: 3215
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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Want to better understand this but must admit it gets confusing. So are you saying that 1968 to 1975, even though don't need to be smogged, if you buy an out of state 1968 to 1975 VW that getting it registered to legally drive here could be an issue, smog related?
Guessing that means you don't have to get smog but must have all California smog hardware in place if any were needed for California during the 1968 to 1975 time period. And if you can't get that part any more, you are screwed so never buy an out of state 1968 to 75 VW if you hope to register here and enjoy it.
Makes me scared to ever spend $$ on say a nice dry Nevada bay window and try to get it registered here and becomes a $25K paper weight.
_________________
tj (the Amishman)
Come visit my web site!
http://www.vwhippie.com |
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nicholastanguma
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009
Posts: 92
Location: LA and SF
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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| amishman wrote: |
| So are you saying that 1968 to 1975, even though don't need to be smogged, if you buy an out of state 1968 to 1975 VW that getting it registered to legally drive here could be an issue, smog related? |
Not could be an issue, is guaranteed to be an issue.
| amishman wrote: |
| Guessing that means you don't have to get smog |
Yes, you will. Keep reading below for better understanding.
| amishman wrote: |
| but must have all California smog hardware in place if any were needed for California during the 1968 to 1975 time period. |
Unfortunately yes.
Anything pre-76 that's already legally registered in Cal is free and clear of all emissions and equipment requirements. But anything post-67 that you're bringing into Cal, whether from overseas or just from another US state, will be required to meet the emissions and equipment standards that were in place from the year of the vehicle's manufacture. If by some miracle you can get a 68-75 auto or moto back to 100% factory California specification and then pass a smog inspection for Cal registration, then after that initial inspection your vehicle is now free and clear of all emissions and equipment requirements just like all other pre-76 Cal registered vehicles.
| amishman wrote: |
And if you can't get that part any more, you are screwed |
Correct. This is why California import companies highly recommend against people trying to import vehicles of these years into Cal, and if they are determined to do so to use a genuine California import company because only with their technical expertise and a huge wad of cash from your wallet can the necessary parts be found, adapted, or fabricated to make the endeavor successful.
68-75 vehicles do get imported into California successfully, but pretty much only by enthusiasts who have the enormous money required for the process.
| amishman wrote: |
so never buy an out of state 1968 to 75 VW if you hope to register here and enjoy it. |
Unless you are a very wealthy individual, this is definitely the wisest course of action. |
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pyrOman
Fire Master
Joined: July 21, 2003
Posts: 12408
Location: Over 2002 posts deleted!
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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I now feel tired, dizzy and have a headache after reading all that crap! 
But, living here for some 30+ years, I’ve known of most of that and have personally experienced some of it too! Having to scrap good running vehicles on a “technicality” is no fun but eventually a grief releasing move! 
Anyway, extremely helpful information for anyone to know before falling into a hole they may not be able to get out of! Thank you for posting it. 
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Some people are so busy being clever they don't have time enough to be wise. |
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amishman
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2004
Posts: 3215
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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Wow, thanks for the further info.
In my time I have only purchased California-registered VWs but lucky... BUT did buy one, from PA, my 1967 Westy. I guess I lucked out on that one!
My 73 Thing I sold a while back was CA.
Never knew this 68-75 Loophole!
That is what I will now call it. VW68-75 Loophole. haha
TJ
| nicholastanguma wrote: |
| amishman wrote: |
| So are you saying that 1968 to 1975, even though don't need to be smogged, if you buy an out of state 1968 to 1975 VW that getting it registered to legally drive here could be an issue, smog related? |
Not could be an issue, is guaranteed to be an issue.
| amishman wrote: |
| Guessing that means you don't have to get smog |
Yes, you will. Keep reading below for better understanding.
| amishman wrote: |
| but must have all California smog hardware in place if any were needed for California during the 1968 to 1975 time period. |
Unfortunately yes.
Anything pre-76 that's already legally registered in Cal is free and clear of all emissions and equipment requirements. But anything post-67 that you're bringing into Cal, whether from overseas or just from another US state, will be required to meet the emissions and equipment standards that were in place from the year of the vehicle's manufacture. If by some miracle you can get a 68-75 auto or moto back to 100% factory California specification and then pass a smog inspection for Cal registration, then after that initial inspection your vehicle is now free and clear of all emissions and equipment requirements just like all other pre-76 Cal registered vehicles.
| amishman wrote: |
And if you can't get that part any more, you are screwed |
Correct. This is why California import companies highly recommend against people trying to import vehicles of these years into Cal, and if they are determined to do so to use a genuine California import company because only with their technical expertise and a huge wad of cash from your wallet can the necessary parts be found, adapted, or fabricated to make the endeavor successful.
68-75 vehicles do get imported into California successfully, but pretty much only by enthusiasts who have the enormous money required for the process.
| amishman wrote: |
so never buy an out of state 1968 to 75 VW if you hope to register here and enjoy it. |
Unless you are a very wealthy individual, this is definitely the wisest course of action. |
_________________
tj (the Amishman)
Come visit my web site!
http://www.vwhippie.com |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22640
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:48 am Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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Can someone confirm this?
I thought to bring a 1968-1975 car into CA you only need to have equipment installed for its initial import, not for CA.
This is relatively easy to do.
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nicholastanguma
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009
Posts: 92
Location: LA and SF
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:23 am Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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| Abscate wrote: |
Can someone confirm this?
I thought to bring a 1968-1975 car into CA you only need to have equipment installed for its initial import, not for CA.
This is relatively easy to do. |
As far as I know the law currently states you must have the vehicle conformed to California specific EPA laws for the year of the vehicle's manufacture, per California's Direct Vehicle Import statutes.
I admit I could be wrong. For the most part, even if I am incorrect about this specific detail, most people would still find getting a vehicle to meet 98-75 EPA equipment regs cost prohibitive.
It sounds like you feel otherwise, and I hope you are correct! Here's an instance wherein I would gladly be proven mistaken!
For the latest in such nuances of CA import law, I suggest you email Sean Morris at Top Rank International Vehicle Importers. This guy will surely know what's what.
https://www.importavehicle.com/california-buyer |
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Abscate
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Posts: 22640
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Useful Info For Import and Registration, esp in California |
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Let’s define cost prohibitive as the 100k required for independent testing required to bring in your unsmogged Borgwald from Russia to show off to your red carpet crowd.
Let’s not include it for the $5000 needed to get that $500 bargain Bus you found in NJ that you want to bring to CA, that’s just poor planning.
The CA Dmv site says pre 1975 are exempt, but the stickers must confirm to CA emission standards , thst will be a problem for a 1968-1975 car.
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