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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Thanks folks, I ended up placing my order with Weddle.
Fun fact: Those diff bearings are the same as front inner wheel bearings on a 2WD T3.
BTW: Since there are Timkens in this, can I assume it's been rebuilt before? _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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There've been some references to doubling up seals, but I just want to be absolutely sure we're not talking about the seal at the rear of the differential (which is a double seal). The doubling goes on at the TC end, right? And unlike the rear, both seals are fitted in the same orientation, right? _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Weddle, known for their seals _________________ .ssS! |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17007 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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I’ve never used 2 torque converter seals. A lipseal needs some lube to keep from failing. Not sure how the second seal survives if the first seal is working as designed. There is a torque converter bushing you can replace and a speedi sleeve for the torque converter seal surface. _________________ ☮️ |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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There's some information out there about doubling up the torque converter seals.
Personally I think it is not useful information. I'm with Mark on this... use one good seal on the torque converter and don't double up with a second seal.
The orange seal sold by Van-Cafe is the all-rubber failure prone seal--I advise against buying it. I had three or four of them fail.
The Napa part 550237 is nominally a rear wheel seal, not a torque converter seal, but its design (with metal contact surfaces and a slightly larger diameter) makes it a good and tight fit. Go with the Napa 550237 seal or the National 3051N. Don't go shopping for something that looks like the seal on the Van-Cafe site--you'll wind up with a poor performing seal.
Just use one seal on the torque converter.
kourt |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:43 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Excellent info as always, thanks! _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Just a note..I am a double seal guy. No problems and no sensitive with the rubber clad seals.
If you do use two seals, facing the same direction of course, be sure and use Vaseline liberally on the seals and in particular between the two seal. That will keep the outboard seal lip wet enough. |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Reference Note: procedure for dropping the automatic transaxle
I had to do this job again today, so I thought I would include the process list for the work. It's handy to have this list. I've included some of the torque values of the bolts for when you have to reinstall.
drive the rear wheels of the van on ramps
open the engine bay
fabricate a hoist from 2x4 and a boat winch, and set over the engine bay on 4x4 cribbing
disconnect CV joints and hang the axles up out of the way with zip ties (33 ft/lb)
remove three torque converter bolts through the access port (22 ft/lb)
thread webbing through the upper bellhousing openings and secure in a loop configuration
attach the winch clip to the webbing loop
detach the throttle cable from the kickdown assembly
detach the shifter cable from the transmission via the e-clip
detach controls from other bolts on forward end of transaxle, hang out of the way
unbolt the four forward transmission mount bolts (30 ft/lb) *OR*
unbolt the single forward transmission mount bushing bolt
unbolt the ground cable at the forward mount
unbolt the upper ATF dipstick tube support tab
disconnect the starting battery ground cable
disconnect the wiring loom from the starter
unbolt and remove starter bolts (41 ft/lb)
position winch system for least interference, remove slack, and make ready for tension
support the engine with a jack + wood block as necessary, to achieve proper angles
remove driver side upper engine+transaxle bolt (41 ft/lb)
remove remaining two lower engine+transaxle bolts (41 ft/lb)
stop, make sure nothing is caught on top or sides of transaxle
remove ATF cooler
lower transaxle carefully onto cardboard or plywood
I had to replace the torque converter seal. National 3051N, available a many retailers. Timken also sells a 3051N model. Here's a photo of the properly installed torque converter seal:
And here is a photo of the torque converter reinstalled, ready for raising and mating with the engine. The webbing strap does double duty--it connects to the winch and raises the transaxle, but it also retains the torque converter in the proper position.
I hope this is a useful reference for some folks.
kourt |
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Philicious5280 Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2012 Posts: 3 Location: Denver
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Howdy Automatic Couch On Wheels Fam!
I too have ben struggling with a DIY automatic trans repair. Long story short, I paid to have a unit rebuilt about 10 yrs ago and over years 6-10 I slowly lost the ability to reverse. I've researched over the years, hoarded a few vanny trannys and one audi turbo unit.
Since vacay was put on hold by the dreaded COVID I decided it was time to do something about the trans and stop having to ask strangers to push me backwards out of parking spots.
I've now pulled/installed the trans 3 times and while reverse is great now I have no or very soft forward gears. I do believe I understand the majority of the issues and concepts here but I need help trying to track down why my Forward Clutch wont pressurize during air pressure tests.
I think I have the likely culprits narrowed down to apply piston or potentially the seal rings on the pump tower. I've tried the test with the unit assembled through the trans case and out of the unit with the pump/direct/forward stacked as shown in the Bentley. Would love a little help or at least some snarky comments thrown my way.
Thanks!
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Traveling right now--sorry for the brief reply. Try the TechTrans manual for this transmission. It's pretty thorough and has good advice for troubleshooting. Replacing the rubber piston in the forward clutch is a good start. Have you done that yet?
kourt |
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Philicious5280 Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2012 Posts: 3 Location: Denver
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Update!
Success! I have forward, reverse, and the dang thing shifts so nice:) On my first test drive to warm up and check fluid levels one of my inner CV joints grenaded leading me to think that I had failed again. I was so downtrodden I almost posted the damn van on CL from the side of the road lol.
In the end it seems like with these little boogers that its never really "one" thing. More likely a group of things are contributing to the problem. In my case I think is was pump seal rings and forward piston that were leaking too much oil pressure to allow the clutch pack to engage. This is why understanding function(at least to some degree) is key in doing anything other than a full tilt rebuild.
Many thanks to Kourt and others in the group for taking the time to share this super valuable DIY skillset. I feel like I'm ready to go farther off the beaten track with confidence! |
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Surfer45 Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2020 Posts: 10 Location: Montana
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Could someone tell me how important the part 59b is. I noticed some diagrams have it and some don't |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:46 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Tech tip. You want to assemble a trans on Kraft paper or other non furry surface. Little bits if fluff aren’t friendly to ATs _________________ .ssS! |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Howdy,
I believe 59b is the small clip resting in a groove on the turbine shaft to keep it from traveling too far into the forward clutch. You will want that clip.
kourt |
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AndyBees Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008 Posts: 2310 Location: Southeast Kentucky
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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A few comments.
About 25 years ago, I rebuilt my first automatic, an 010 to go in an 84 Jetta. I was working on it in my uncle's garage when a customer came in that I did not know or had never seen before. He came back where I was working.......... said, "I'm retired from Ford's Transmission Division" (something like that). He said, "we used WD-40 when putting everything together on the assembly line."
So, I used WD-40 on that transmission and the next two 010s I rebuilt. They all worked just fine.
I cleaned all the parts in Mineral Spirits then washed them with soapy water, rinsed with water and then blew them dry with compressed air.
I agree that you need a very clean work space with lots of good lighting. Work sequence is extremely important too.
As I said, those three 010 transmissions worked fine and lasted for years (in cars, not Vans). I did rebuild an automatic Mitsubishi transmission that never lasted 1,000 miles. But, the owner would not buy a new torque converter. The oil/fluid in the old TC was almost black ..... what can you say? _________________ '84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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Shonandb Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2019 Posts: 1129 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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A learning situation:
Just had my Vanagon auto transaxle out while I was doing some engine work and took the torque converter off to check the oil seal and drove to a local shop (Lee's Transmission in Vancouver) with the transmission in the car to pick up a couple O rings.
During the trip, I didn't realize that the pump driveshaft slid out of the transmission and lodged under the seat. Long story short - make sure everything is back where it should be before assembling.
I put the torque converter back on and assembled everything and reinstalled the engine and transmission and started it up. When I put it in reverse to go for a test drive, nothing happened.
I racked my brain for half a day and found the metal pump driveshaft under the back seat. It set me back a day to take everything apart, remove the E&T, add the shaft and reinstall everything again.
Off camping this weekend! _________________ *******************************
76 Westy with a 2.5L Subaru SOHC + Vanagon (010) Automatic Transaxle
Build & Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758760
Previous 1973 Panel Bus:
Click to view image |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17007 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Surfer45 wrote: |
Could someone tell me how important the part 59b is. I noticed some diagrams have it and some don't |
Not sure how long this image will last. This is a turbineshaft as it came out of an 80 vanagon. I don't see the clip. Not a great picture though.
_________________ ☮️ |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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That reminds me of the time I installed the transaxle and then noticed my ATF dipstick tube was jammed up under the engine deck. I had to half-undo some of the install to get it back out.
kourt |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16473 Location: Brookeville, MD
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jlrftype7 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018 Posts: 3549 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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dobryan wrote: |
Don't ask me about the time I did a clutch on my '77 911 and left the ring gear off the flywheel when I reinstalled it in the 911. |
We have too much respect for you to ever bring it up..l.l _________________ '68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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