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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1157 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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Can you post a picture of the gas valve and burner access area in detail? Do you truly have a thermopile? Or do you have a thermocouple or powerpile. Some people interchange these names. It is possible that the gas valve is faulty. Make sure the access doors and grommets are sealed up, no gaps. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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LAGrunthaner Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007 Posts: 5501 Location: 1st Coast
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:23 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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raydog, yes it is a thermopile from A.O. Smith and installed by the service provider. The pilot went out 2 more times since Monday's install. I called A.O. Smith again and now they are sending the entire heating unit which includes everything except the holding tank and computer. They also said I will not break warrantee if I install it. My colleague at school in the engineering department is intrigued and is going to help me install it as he doesn't think the gas pressure needs to be tested. I'm looking forward to the results. My brother-in-law who is a mechanical engineer said he had to replace his computer on the same unit but I think he received warning flashes which I have never gotten.
The entire unit I'm waiting to arrive looks somewhat to this:
raydog wrote: |
Can you post a picture of the gas valve and burner access area in detail? Do you truly have a thermopile? Or do you have a thermocouple or powerpile. Some people interchange these names. It is possible that the gas valve is faulty. Make sure the access doors and grommets are sealed up, no gaps. |
_________________ American Red Cross Safe And Well:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/...bsite.html
Maui Roadsters
www.mauiroadsters.com
http://www.oacdp.org
Lind wrote: |
Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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Can you snap a picture if the pilot flame? It has to bathe the whole thermopile to work right.
No backdrafts on flue,and make sure no one has nested it it either? _________________ .ssS! |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1157 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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I am a little skeptical as to whether the replacement burner assembly will solve your problem. Thermopiles or powerpiles don't have a very high failure rate, this will now be your third one. Other than that, there is nothing on that assembly that will cause the pilot to randomly go out unless yours is physically damaged somehow. It is possible that the replacement assembly that they are sending is a redesign. But going from experience, I have replaced an unusually high number of gas valves on these because of intermittent pilot failures.
Also, after you remove the existing burner, use compressed air to blow out the ceramic honeycomb directly below where the pan is located. Blow from inside the water heater. This is where the heater gets its combustion air. If that gets plugged, it will also put the pilot out, but usually, the high limit trips too. Hopefully this info is correct, without having your model number, but I think what you have is a basic gas water heater that is chimney vented.
Just to add, make sure your water heater is not an LP unit being used with natural gas. You probably would have picked up on this long ago, just worth mentioning. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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Well it worked for 4 years, so I doubt it is an LP on gas.
But, they could have sent you LP parts by mistake.
L...I do have the working assembly from my last cold water heater from when I went on-demand _________________ .ssS! |
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LAGrunthaner Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007 Posts: 5501 Location: 1st Coast
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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Abscate, I'll get that picture sometime today. I have a door to my chimney which I will open and look inside & get an image, good idea.
Abscate wrote: |
Can you snap a picture if the pilot flame? It has to bathe the whole thermopile to work right.
No backdrafts on flue,and make sure no one has nested it it either? |
raydog, My AO Smith water heater, model is GCR 30 400. How did you determine your gas valves not working properly and required you to replace them?
raydog wrote: |
I am a little skeptical as to whether the replacement burner assembly will solve your problem. Thermopiles or powerpiles don't have a very high failure rate, this will now be your third one. Other than that, there is nothing on that assembly that will cause the pilot to randomly go out unless yours is physically damaged somehow. It is possible that the replacement assembly that they are sending is a redesign. But going from experience, I have replaced an unusually high number of gas valves on these because of intermittent pilot failures.
Also, after you remove the existing burner, use compressed air to blow out the ceramic honeycomb directly below where the pan is located. Blow from inside the water heater. This is where the heater gets its combustion air. If that gets plugged, it will also put the pilot out, but usually, the high limit trips too. Hopefully this info is correct, without having your model number, but I think what you have is a basic gas water heater that is chimney vented.
Just to add, make sure your water heater is not an LP unit being used with natural gas. You probably would have picked up on this long ago, just worth mentioning. |
_________________ American Red Cross Safe And Well:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/...bsite.html
Maui Roadsters
www.mauiroadsters.com
http://www.oacdp.org
Lind wrote: |
Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1157 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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Abscate wrote: |
Well it worked for 4 years, so I doubt it is an LP on gas.
But, they could have sent you LP parts by mistake.
L...I do have the working assembly from my last cold water heater from when I went on-demand |
An LP unit will work on natural gas, but not very well, again, this should/would have been noticed long ago.
When the water heaters were redesigned so that the flames could no longer roll out and ignite nearby combustibles, practically ever year the new design was being changed because of various design flaws causing burners, pilots etc. to go out. It came to a point where there was a class action lawsuit, and manufacturers had to replace free of charge the burner assemblies and gas valves if the customer had constant pilot outages.
LAGrunthaner's water heater was made after that whole fiasco. Now they have the type with the powerpile and gas valve with the idiot light that flashes. Back to LAGrunthaner's question. First thing to change is the powerpile and check all connections for clean and tightness. Also make sure screen and surrounding breathable belt that goes around the water heater must be clean. Last thing to replace was the gas valve, with this design 9 out of 10 times that solved the problem. If it helps, I have been doing this for 25 years.
The purpose of the powerpile is to keep the coil for the pilot solenoid, inside the gas valve, open to allow the pilot to stay lit. It also serves as a power source for the led light and electronic circuitry. A weak coil will cause intermittent problems and drop out the pilot for no reason. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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LAGrunthaner Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007 Posts: 5501 Location: 1st Coast
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:30 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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raydog, very interesting information, thank you.
I've always used pipe dope for the fittings but my colleague who will help tomorrow wanted to use the gas tape. I've aways been told to stick with old school pipe dope. Your opinion?
Also should I replace the valve too?
I checked the chimney and it is clear and clean, looks like new in there as I try to post pics.
I personally want to know why it didn't keep the pilot light on after 4 years as much as I want it to work all the time.
I think you can see these images as I made them public. I can't figure out how to make them appear without having to click the link. Tips appreciated.
Thank you kindly, Linda
Chimney:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/52535934@N08/51144752279/in/photostream/
Tank:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/52535934@N08/51145074675/in/photostream/
Computer & valve:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/52535934@N08/51143978441/in/photostream/
Stovepipe:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/52535934@N08/51145079950/in/photostream/
raydog wrote: |
Abscate wrote: |
Well it worked for 4 years, so I doubt it is an LP on gas.
But, they could have sent you LP parts by mistake.
L...I do have the working assembly from my last cold water heater from when I went on-demand |
An LP unit will work on natural gas, but not very well, again, this should/would have been noticed long ago.
When the water heaters were redesigned so that the flames could no longer roll out and ignite nearby combustibles, practically ever year the new design was being changed because of various design flaws causing burners, pilots etc. to go out. It came to a point where there was a class action lawsuit, and manufacturers had to replace free of charge the burner assemblies and gas valves if the customer had constant pilot outages.
LAGrunthaner's water heater was made after that whole fiasco. Now they have the type with the powerpile and gas valve with the idiot light that flashes. Back to LAGrunthaner's question. First thing to change is the powerpile and check all connections for clean and tightness. Also make sure screen and surrounding breathable belt that goes around the water heater must be clean. Last thing to replace was the gas valve, with this design 9 out of 10 times that solved the problem. If it helps, I have been doing this for 25 years.
The purpose of the powerpile is to keep the coil for the pilot solenoid, inside the gas valve, open to allow the pilot to stay lit. It also serves as a power source for the led light and electronic circuitry. A weak coil will cause intermittent problems and drop out the pilot for no reason. |
_________________ American Red Cross Safe And Well:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/...bsite.html
Maui Roadsters
www.mauiroadsters.com
http://www.oacdp.org
Lind wrote: |
Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1157 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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The installation looks fine. I personally would just use pipe dope on the fittings. The flex line to the burner and the aluminum pilot tubing , just put a small dab on the threads, just to help with getting threads started. The flare and compression ferrule do the actual sealing. Then use either dope or tape for the black iron nipple. Try to stay away from using both dope and Teflon. The Teflon can break up in small pieces and get inside the valve. At this point, I would replace the valve, along with the parts that you have received. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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Im really reaching here, but maybe...
Shut off the gas upstream, and pull the debris nipple (whats the trade term, raydog) and see if maybe you got a big shot of junk from the gas main?
...sediment trap, maybe?? _________________ .ssS! |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9880 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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No dope on the threads of any flared fittings. It just does not work. They end up loose and leak. Teflon tape is okay to use but again it has limits.
Regular pipe thread receive dope or tape.
Tapered pipe thread receive dope or tape.
Flared fittings receive nothing!!!! _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1157 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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VW_Jimbo wrote: |
No dope on the threads of any flared fittings. It just does not work. They end up loose and leak. Teflon tape is okay to use but again it has limits.
Regular pipe thread receive dope or tape.
Tapered pipe thread receive dope or tape.
Flared fittings receive nothing!!!! |
Nothing wrong with putting a dab of dope, or a drop of oil on the slip nut threads or on the threads of a compression fitting nut to help get the nut started, and to aid in taking the fitting apart at a later date. Just don't goop it all over the sealing surface. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1157 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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Abscate wrote: |
Im really reaching here, but maybe...
Shut off the gas upstream, and pull the debris nipple (whats the trade term, raydog) and see if maybe you got a big shot of junk from the gas main?
...sediment trap, maybe?? |
You got it! _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9880 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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raydog wrote: |
VW_Jimbo wrote: |
No dope on the threads of any flared fittings. It just does not work. They end up loose and leak. Teflon tape is okay to use but again it has limits.
Regular pipe thread receive dope or tape.
Tapered pipe thread receive dope or tape.
Flared fittings receive nothing!!!! |
Nothing wrong with putting a dab of dope, or a drop of oil on the slip nut threads or on the threads of a compression fitting nut to help get the nut started, and to aid in taking the fitting apart at a later date. Just don't goop it all over the sealing surface. |
The Building Officials around here would frown and leave an unsigned permit slot. Not a good thing. Lubing threads is one things, that’s what Vaseline is for. But anything else is a fail around here. _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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my59 Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2003 Posts: 3780 Location: connecting the dots
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Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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Black iron pipe with Teflon tape T'd off of a domestic gas range supply line got a big fail in NYC...and all the piping was concealed behind the custom kitchen cabinets and though the walk in custom fitted cabinet closet to the gas grill on the terrace. Teflon could be seen at the terrace, and right at the T....
Client swore his plumber only used it there of course, and that the rest was fine. Reason we were involved was his plumber never had a rough in inspection done by the building department, and he wanted some plumber to pro certify the installation.
No one would do it. _________________ my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget. |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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I noticed Linda had some galvanized to black pipe in her supply... that will get trouble in some jurisdictions here, but not others.
I’ve learned it isn’t smart to argue with the code guy , either way
Any pro comment on that?? _________________ .ssS! |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9880 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts |
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Abscate wrote: |
I noticed Linda had some galvanized to black pipe in her supply... that will get trouble in some jurisdictions here, but not others.
I’ve learned it isn’t smart to argue with the code guy , either way
Any pro comment on that?? |
I only go talk with the "Chief Building Inspector" when there is a blatant issue. Regardless, if they send the same inspector out on the finish side, well... you might have shot yourself in the foot. I have also done that! _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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LAGrunthaner Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007 Posts: 5501 Location: 1st Coast
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:03 am Post subject: Re: Help ordering correct hot water heater parts...solved. |
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Problem solved and posted on this link:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9974228#9974228
VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Abscate wrote: |
I noticed Linda had some galvanized to black pipe in her supply... that will get trouble in some jurisdictions here, but not others.
I’ve learned it isn’t smart to argue with the code guy , either way
Any pro comment on that?? |
I only go talk with the "Chief Building Inspector" when there is a blatant issue. Regardless, if they send the same inspector out on the finish side, well... you might have shot yourself in the foot. I have also done that! |
_________________ American Red Cross Safe And Well:
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/...bsite.html
Maui Roadsters
www.mauiroadsters.com
http://www.oacdp.org
Lind wrote: |
Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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