| Author |
Message |
dsb0328
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2020
Posts: 61
Location: Missouri
|
 Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:51 pm Post subject: Transmission cooler question |
 |
|
Hi everyone. I have a question about a transmission cooler I had installed on my 2003 Eurovan MV. I was told adding an external cooler would be a good idea, and even got suggestions for which one to install. After seeing the labor, and tools, that were involved in getting in through the engine compartment to the transmission, I decided I would have a friend mechanic install one for me. (He's been in business for over 40 years, but not just on VW.) This wasn't really the best decision I've ever made as he didn't do a very good job. However, I had a transmission shop fix what he caused and now it runs way better. Well, better except that I think it still runs a little hot at 215-220 sometimes while driving on side roads a lot for over an hour. However, that's better than the 245 that it would get up to originally. That led me to take the front grill off today to see what kind of cooler he installed, and it wasn't either of the models that was suggested to me. What do you all think of that temp and this tiny cooler he put on? I'm pretty sure he's not going to refund and/or replace it, but I want to get your thoughts anyway. If I need to replace it, at least the hoses are already there and I can just change the cooler out for a better one, if necessary. Thanks in advance for any help and insight.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22639
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
| Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
If the trans is running at 245 on level ground that’s a trans problem. It is designed to run at the regulated coolant temperature by VW
The only ones who think these are a good idea are those selling them.
_________________
.ssS! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsb0328
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2020
Posts: 61
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| Abscate wrote: |
If the trans is running at 245 on level ground that’s a trans problem. It is designed to run at the regulated coolant temperature by VW
The only ones who think these are a good idea are those selling them. |
Thanks for the reply, Abscate.
I wasn't recommended by the mechanic to put it in, or anyone trying to sell me one, but rather by a few people who drive their vans with one and swear by it.
Also, the trans used to run hot at the highest temp at 245. Now it runs cooler but still rather warm at 215-220 at the highest temps. Usually around 190-205 though. It drives really nice and strong, just wondering about the temps and the cooler. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
|
| Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
Yeah, that core is way too small. I live in an area with a lot of long steep grades that heat soak the ATF for extended periods of time. We need coolers matched with the area available for fitment.
I'm currently researching a cooler for a friend's '00, because I've long forgotten the one I installed on my van. I'll post here when I narrow it down.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsb0328
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2020
Posts: 61
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
Yeah, that core is way too small. I live in an area with a lot of long steep grades that heat soak the ATF for extended periods of time. We need coolers matched with the area available for fitment.
I'm currently researching a cooler for a friend's '00, because I've long forgotten the one I installed on my van. I'll post here when I narrow it down. |
I was told a good one for these is the 12 row Long Tru Cool LPD49211. I gave this info to the mechanic and he didn't even listen. The guy who suggested that cooler said he is also running a 160 degree by-pass. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MrPulldown
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2020
Posts: 649
Location: Truckee
|
| Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
I have a Go-westy cooler that has a little dent in it if you want it. Doesn't leak, and will work fine, but doesn't look nice. Just pay for shipping. I'll take a picture if you would like.
Did the mechanic install a thermostat before the cooler. Your going to want that in the winter months. How cold does it get where you live?
_________________
2002 EVC |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsb0328
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2020
Posts: 61
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| MrPulldown wrote: |
I have a Go-westy cooler that has a little dent in it if you want it. Doesn't leak, and will work fine, but doesn't look nice. Just pay for shipping. I'll take a picture if you would like.
Did the mechanic install a thermostat before the cooler. Your going to want that in the winter months. How cold does it get where you live? |
I don't believe he installed a thermostat, but maybe that's because the cooler is so small, he might not have thought it needed one. I'm in Missouri, so it gets cold, but not terribly cold. I'd say usually around 20-30 degrees during a cold winter and sometimes reaching 0, but not for very long usually. We mostly use the van for camping, which doesn't happen much in the winter.
I really appreciate the offer for the cooler. I wonder if I could just hook the hoses that are already there, from the original swap, up to it. Is it this one you're talking about? Send a pic please. And where are you located so I can see how much shipping might cost, unless you already know how much to Missouri. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22639
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:58 am Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
I reached steady state on a 15 minute hill pull, towing a 3600 pound Volvo , of240F documented here
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...ure+towing
The oil manufacturers rate their oils up to 290F, but obviously that is interval dependent for service life. I did go 50k on my last ATF Pentosin load , that’s a nice , buttery smooth shift even at 0F
_________________
.ssS! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsb0328
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2020
Posts: 61
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| Abscate wrote: |
I reached steady state on a 15 minute hill pull, towing a 3600 pound Volvo , of240F documented here
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...ure+towing
The oil manufacturers rate their oils up to 290F, but obviously that is interval dependent for service life. I did go 50k on my last ATF Pentosin load , that’s a nice , buttery smooth shift even at 0F |
Wow! Every mechanic I talked to said that anything over 230-240 is a bad thing for transmission fluid. (I'm not very knowledgable about transmission stuff, that's why I come here.)
My original setup was running around 225-245 while not towing and not too many big hills either. That's about an hour or so driving around town. When they replaced the old cooler with the new one, they said the oil was really thick and dark. I'm not sure what it's supposed to look like, but that didn't sound particularly good to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whridlsoncestood
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2020
Posts: 178
Location: Orange, CT
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
I’m doing a 5 hour drive to Maine next weekend. Just put scangauge in to watch temps. No cooler added. Transmission filter and fluid change done this weekend. First time since I’ve owned it.
_________________
2001 EV MV |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
daveelser
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2004
Posts: 9
Location: philly, pa
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
Where and how did you install the scan guage...? and for a 93 weekender...are there any?
_________________
Dave
'72 Super Beetle
'83 Scirroco
'91+ '93 Jetta
'78 Westy Riviera and '79 Westy Champagne
'90 + '91 Westy
93 Eurovan Weekender
93 Weekender ...currently. help! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsb0328
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2020
Posts: 61
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| Whridlsoncestood wrote: |
I’m doing a 5 hour drive to Maine next weekend. Just put scangauge in to watch temps. No cooler added. Transmission filter and fluid change done this weekend. First time since I’ve owned it.
|
Good luck. I hope it goes well for you. I look forward to your experience.
On a side note, did you get your Scangauge from the factory or a store? I heard those big screen radios can wreak havoc with the Scangauge if it's not programmed correctly. The woman at the factory told me that when I called to ask some questions about mine. I only have a regular aftermarket stereo installed, so I didn't have to worry about it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| dsb0328 wrote: |
| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
Yeah, that core is way too small. I live in an area with a lot of long steep grades that heat soak the ATF for extended periods of time. We need coolers matched with the area available for fitment.
I'm currently researching a cooler for a friend's '00, because I've long forgotten the one I installed on my van. I'll post here when I narrow it down. |
I was told a good one for these is the 12 row Long Tru Cool LPD49211. I gave this info to the mechanic and he didn't even listen. The guy who suggested that cooler said he is also running a 160 degree by-pass. |
Thanks, that does appear to be the same cooler I fitted.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whridlsoncestood
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2020
Posts: 178
Location: Orange, CT
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| daveelser wrote: |
| Where and how did you install the scan guage...? and for a 93 weekender...are there any? |
Runs off the OBD2 port. 94 would be OBD1 so not sure they have one or really would be able to pull much data.
_________________
2001 EV MV |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OB Bus
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2003
Posts: 2535
Location: Ocean Beach in Beautiful BLUE California
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| dsb0328 wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
I reached steady state on a 15 minute hill pull, towing a 3600 pound Volvo , of240F documented here
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...ure+towing
The oil manufacturers rate their oils up to 290F, but obviously that is interval dependent for service life. I did go 50k on my last ATF Pentosin load , that’s a nice , buttery smooth shift even at 0F |
Wow! Every mechanic I talked to said that anything over 230-240 is a bad thing for transmission fluid. (I'm not very knowledgable about transmission stuff, that's why I come here.)
My original setup was running around 225-245 while not towing and not too many big hills either. That's about an hour or so driving around town. When they replaced the old cooler with the new one, they said the oil was really thick and dark. I'm not sure what it's supposed to look like, but that didn't sound particularly good to me. |
To the OP, I agree that based on conversations with a number of transmission shops, 240 is max on temps if you want your transmission to survive.
Mr. Abscate is a very helpful and knowledgeable member on his forums. He is also an ardent defender of the stock EV transmission. His temp recordings while towing in upstate New York or Vermont may not reflect reality west of the Mississippi. Try climbing towards Cedar Breaks, Utah in August, when it’s 95° outside, on a 14% grade for 18 miles, starting at 7000 feet elevation with the GoWesty trans cooler. We got up to 240 very quickly and no amount of gearing down or slowing would get it to go down. That was with a full load but *without* towing anything. We broke off the climb early.
To me there is no downside to having a good cooler. Heat kills. Rebuilt transmissions seem to be running between $4500 and $7000, in some cases plus labor.
Just my opinion. YMMV.
_________________
Larry in OB
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
69 Westfalia and 2002 Eurovan Camper. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whridlsoncestood
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2020
Posts: 178
Location: Orange, CT
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| dsb0328 wrote: |
| Whridlsoncestood wrote: |
I’m doing a 5 hour drive to Maine next weekend. Just put scangauge in to watch temps. No cooler added. Transmission filter and fluid change done this weekend. First time since I’ve owned it.
|
Good luck. I hope it goes well for you. I look forward to your experience.
On a side note, did you get your Scangauge from the factory or a store? I heard those big screen radios can wreak havoc with the Scangauge if it's not programmed correctly. The woman at the factory told me that when I called to ask some questions about mine. I only have a regular aftermarket stereo installed, so I didn't have to worry about it. |
Ordered from bus depot as they put the extra coding in for the tranny temp and it’s the same price as everywhere else. Saved me some time.
I’m curious what could possibly wreak havoc on scanguage from my radio. It’s a single din radio. Straightforward wiring into factory harness connector. Scanguage is just pulling data from obd2 port. If the radio was messing with that data I’d assume the car is running off incorrect data too.
_________________
2001 EV MV |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsb0328
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2020
Posts: 61
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| OB Bus wrote: |
| dsb0328 wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
I reached steady state on a 15 minute hill pull, towing a 3600 pound Volvo , of240F documented here
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...ure+towing
The oil manufacturers rate their oils up to 290F, but obviously that is interval dependent for service life. I did go 50k on my last ATF Pentosin load , that’s a nice , buttery smooth shift even at 0F |
Wow! Every mechanic I talked to said that anything over 230-240 is a bad thing for transmission fluid. (I'm not very knowledgable about transmission stuff, that's why I come here.)
My original setup was running around 225-245 while not towing and not too many big hills either. That's about an hour or so driving around town. When they replaced the old cooler with the new one, they said the oil was really thick and dark. I'm not sure what it's supposed to look like, but that didn't sound particularly good to me. |
To the OP, I agree that based on conversations with a number of transmission shops, 240 is max on temps if you want your transmission to survive.
Mr. Abscate is a very helpful and knowledgeable member on his forums. He is also an ardent defender of the stock EV transmission. His temp recordings while towing in upstate New York or Vermont may not reflect reality west of the Mississippi. Try climbing towards Cedar Breaks, Utah in August, when it’s 95° outside, on a 14% grade for 18 miles, starting at 7000 feet elevation with the GoWesty trans cooler. We got up to 240 very quickly and no amount of gearing down or slowing would get it to go down. That was with a full load but *without* towing anything. We broke off the climb early.
To me there is no downside to having a good cooler. Heat kills. Rebuilt transmissions seem to be running between $4500 and $7000, in some cases plus labor.
Just my opinion. YMMV. |
Thanks for the reply OB Bus. Do you have any recommendations of coolers or any not to get? Also, what do you think of my situation and the one I have installed? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsb0328
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2020
Posts: 61
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| Whridlsoncestood wrote: |
| dsb0328 wrote: |
| Whridlsoncestood wrote: |
| I’m doing a 5 hour drive to Maine next weekend. Just put scangauge in to watch temps. No cooler added. Transmission filter and fluid change done this weekend. First time since I’ve owned it. |
Good luck. I hope it goes well for you. I look forward to your experience.
On a side note, did you get your Scangauge from the factory or a store? I heard those big screen radios can wreak havoc with the Scangauge if it's not programmed correctly. The woman at the factory told me that when I called to ask some questions about mine. I only have a regular aftermarket stereo installed, so I didn't have to worry about it. |
Ordered from bus depot as they put the extra coding in for the tranny temp and it’s the same price as everywhere else. Saved me some time.
I’m curious what could possibly wreak havoc on scanguage from my radio. It’s a single din radio. Straightforward wiring into factory harness connector. Scanguage is just pulling data from obd2 port. If the radio was messing with that data I’d assume the car is running off incorrect data too. |
Here's an email that I received from Linear Logic, which is I think the place that makes Scangauge II:
VW's with aftermarket stereos installed cause a capacitor in the ScanGauge to blow, causing it to no longer connect to vehicles that use the ISO protocol.
The following link provides the history of the problem you are experiencing and a fix for it http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/aftermarket-radio.html. As you can see, there are few adjustments you will have to make to your vehicle in order to use the ScanGaugeII again in this vehicle.
Mine ended up being fine, but they replaced the one I bought at Advance Auto Parts with one of their own that was coded differently anyway, for free. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OB Bus
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2003
Posts: 2535
Location: Ocean Beach in Beautiful BLUE California
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| dsb0328 wrote: |
Thanks for the reply OB Bus. Do you have any recommendations of coolers or any not to get? Also, what do you think of my situation and the one I have installed? |
Carl Hansen on the multiple FB forums much prefers the Tru-Cool (?). When we bought our EVC the only one I knew about was the one from GW. Other that the attempted climb into Cedar Breaks we have not had any trans temp issues. I have never even looked at mine to compare.
_________________
Larry in OB
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
69 Westfalia and 2002 Eurovan Camper. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MrPulldown
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2020
Posts: 649
Location: Truckee
|
| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question |
|
|
| dsb0328 wrote: |
I don't believe he installed a thermostat, but maybe that's because the cooler is so small, he might not have thought it needed one. I'm in Missouri, so it gets cold, but not terribly cold. I'd say usually around 20-30 degrees during a cold winter and sometimes reaching 0, but not for very long usually. We mostly use the van for camping, which doesn't happen much in the winter.
I really appreciate the offer for the cooler. I wonder if I could just hook the hoses that are already there, from the original swap, up to it. Is it this one you're talking about? Send a pic please. And where are you located so I can see how much shipping might cost, unless you already know how much to Missouri. |
Seems like based on your mechanic misguided cooler installation, he didn't even consider a t-stat. IMO and others a t-stat is very important for a ATF cooler. The ATF needs to be a min operating temp in order for it to function properly. That is why all ATF cooler kits come with one. In fact the OE cooler/heat exchanger also as acts as an ATF warmer as engine coolant warms up faster than ATF. We get similar temps to you and this winter the transmission would not shift well on short in town drives as the ATF never got up to temp. On cold days I would think the t-stat would cycle open and close to maintain a min operating temp. It does appear that you have the ability to monitor your ATF temp, so at least you'll be able to know if it is too cold and add a t-stat at a later time.
Any here is the cooler. It was damaged during shipping and GW replaced the cooler. They did not want it back and I was planning on using this for some other project. I have not found a suitable application in over 5 years so if you can put it to good use it is your. From the picture you can see that it was dented along the edge. The fluid passage is inboard of the first row of fins and was not touched. The dented top plate is just solid framing. I doubt the damaged fins affect its ability to cool much.
The cooler is about 24x6" overall with the fluid nipples at 0.385" in diameter. (not including the flare).
My Zip code is 96161.
_________________
2002 EVC
Last edited by MrPulldown on Thu May 06, 2021 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
