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2.1 MV rebuild
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DanHoug
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 6:23 am    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

having made my own air/oil cooler system, i can say that Chris Corkin's system from Intrepid Overland (vanistan.com) is a bargain. i spent more on my system than the cost of Chris' kit and took a stupid amount of time working up the bracket to hold the HX in the pillar airflow. i like how mine came out, works great, but just get his kit, it is made for our vans.

here's my OAHX build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=371101&postorder=desc
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'87 Westy, ratty but drive anywhere.
'89 Westy, gorgeous but hasn't been gone thru to drive anywhere.
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90weekender
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

Felix,
I'm agreeing with Markswagen that it was fully seated all around with a huge socket from my 1" drive set. Then checked with a light tap all around with a flat punch.

Dan,
Thanks for the tip on the Sabo....I've got a new spare and will use it. It's 12.5mm thick and much heftier than the VR.
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90weekender
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

dhaavers,

Yes...initial end play was checked as you say....no seal...dry shims...0035". My torque was not 81 ftlbs tho. I put them on to about 50 to check dry end play.

I watched that boston bob video last year when I was "back to school" with this engine build. He's great.

I'll look at it again...maybe I missed something. I can say the VR seal is very tight compared to the Sabo. So when pushing the flywheel onto the crank it's not possible to get it to feel seated without using the 5 bolts. It's super unsatisfying as a mechanical operation. Even when the bolts were torqued, the flywheel did not seem solidly seated. I wonder if the burrs on the crank, visible in my images above are causing a foul.
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90weekender
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

4Gears4Tires,

Thanks for the heads up and the link. It's the first I've heard of this failure.

Kit looks good, but I'm on a schedule now that requires more of a proven bolt-on solution. And I was soooo hoping to do a stock looking job.

If anyone can point me to a proven engine oil cooler kit...(I don't like the non-OEM rubber air vent hose on Vanistan kit)...please let me know. Also, as stated Tencent kit uses the existing oil cooler. Unless I'm missing something it does not defy the catastrophic failure mentioned above.
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felixbobcat
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

I used a Victor Reinz on my recent rebuild and no leaks...yet. It does need to be driven in like yours until it stops at the small lip. Yours looks like it went in a little further then mine which make s it look like it is curling out from the center.

If you haven't seen this I would suggest watching it before installing another rear main seal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7lpH4TDA7M&t=1412s.

It's Bob Donalds showing the proper way to set crank end play and installing a rear seal.
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felixbobcat
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

The previous rear seal that I replaced was a Sabo. I installed it about 2000 miles ago. It was leaking when I pulled the engine for its rebuild. It could have been how I installed it. I didn't lube the outside when I put it in.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

Did you replace the O ring seal? The new o-ring is a snug fit over the crank snoot. I see some nicks on the end of the crank snoot too.

With the 2.1, it is possible to accidentally knock the thrust washer out of its notch when you knock the seal in. The GW flywheel seal install tool works pretty good for smoothly pressing the seal in and to the proper depth.
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90weekender
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

Mark nailed it:

The thrust washer jumped out of the notch and I put 81 ftlbs of flywheel against it. The pictures below are fair warning to those who are doing this at home.

Soooo. How do I recover from this? How bad is this damage?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm guessing this will not effect the longevity or reliability of the engine at all, if I can smooth out any protrusion of the bearing surface. It's aluminum and easy to manipulate.

The shims are toast, and I will call vancafe and buy a new set ASAP.

Any other ideas from the Pros out there who have successfully fixed this problem are welcome.

I hypothesize 2 installation strategies:
1.) tilt your engine so the front of the crank is facing the ceiling. This allows gravity to keep the thrust bearing in place while you slide the flywheel into place.

2.) use the Gowesty "rear main seal install tool". But I can't see how this keeps the bearing in place better. I think it just negates the need to hammer the seal in place....which causes the bearing to jump out of place.

https://www.gowesty.com/product/tools/25430/rear-main-seal-install-tool-?v=
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

Once you set the endplay, you can use a film of grease to "stick" it all together. Sorry about that, but luckily you caught it. The seal tool is a clean way to draw the seal in squarely. When you use a hammer, sleeve etc, it's possible to knock something loose.

I also use the older bolts to pull the flywheel on squarely. I have a palm ratchet that works well. Then I remove them and install new bolts with loctite to torque.

Its a unfortunate design. Sorry I was right. PS, don't forget the O ring in the flywheel. It keeps oil from weeping out the bolt holes.
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90weekender
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

Thanks Mark,

My 5 Flywheel bolts are only 1 year old, but have been torqued down 2 times now. When I get this job fixed it will be a 3rd torquing.

Should i use new bolts?

Thanks
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

They arenít torque to yield. If they take the torque, you should be ok. I know itís difficult to keep buying parts, but you are way ahead of paying someone else. In other words, donít be pound foolish. Iíd be more concerned about reusing the thrust washer if thatís the plan.
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DanHoug
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

good catch before it went in!!! you can feel great about that!

while waiting for parts, take a file and smooth off the raised divets from nose of the crank. valleys won't matter but a raised edge can cut the o ring. and make sure that o ring is new!
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90weekender
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

Mark,

I'm not reusing anything so small, critical and inexpensive...all new parts are on order.

Dan,
I will need to do some some smoothing on the case as well as the nose of the crank.
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90weekender
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

What do you think of this fix?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've peened the high spots and gently filed the burrs, but their is a slightly lower surface where the thrust bearing touches the undercut surface below the dent.

However, the thrust bearing is centered...and slides/rotates without resistance. It seems to perform as designed. And I can't think of any reason to remove more material.

Any experienced folks out there have an objection?
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 4:14 am    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

Looks fine to me.
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90weekender
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

markswagen wrote:
if you bought a new bher {chinese} oil cooler, cross your fingers, this was a 2 year old chinese bher cooler Sad

the whole cooling system was mud Sad pressure testing the cooler proved the leak Sad
this cost me a new radiator, stainless pipes, heater matrix, and every single piece of rubber hose in the syncro Sad
i'll NEVER use another


If this is such a risky part, I wonder if bypassing the oil cooler is feasible. Technically it looks easy. But would oil temps be too high?


Last edited by 90weekender on Mon May 17, 2021 12:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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90weekender
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 10:00 pm    Post subject: Front seal and Shims Reply with quote

Put all this stuff in today...plus the front seal. I also bought the Gowesty front seal tool to install everything perfectly.

And to my surprise the tool did not work as well as I expected. The seal went in a little angled. Not much, but I had to take a mallet to that side of the tool to get it seated straight. Be warned.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Maybe you can tell I filed and smoothed the rough edges off of the crank snout. It made big difference when putting the flywheel back on. The o-ring was no longer getting hung up.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Clutch also installed today!
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90weekender
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 12:41 pm    Post subject: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

Big push this weekend:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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90weekender
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

Reposting this...

markswagen wrote:
if you bought a new bher {chinese} oil cooler, cross your fingers, this was a 2 year old chinese bher cooler Sad

the whole cooling system was mud Sad pressure testing the cooler proved the leak Sad
this cost me a new radiator, stainless pipes, heater matrix, and every single piece of rubber hose in the syncro Sad
i'll NEVER use another


If this is such a risky part, I wonder if bypassing the oil cooler is feasible. Technically it looks easy. But would oil temps be too high?
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DanHoug
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild Reply with quote

the cooler elimination requires a oil filter nipple for non cooler VW 059 115 721 plus very good blocking of the coolant lines.

the 'cooler' performs just as much of a warm up function for reduced emissions during the warm up cycle as it does cooling. think of it as a tempering device, not a true oil cooler.

with that gorgeous of an engine, i'd put on a true thermostatically controlled oil cooler. i put one on and wish i'd taken the OEM HX off at the time but i did have a NOS VW cooler so it's probably okay. but it'd be great to have better engine access in the water pump area and eliminate a potential trouble spot.
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'87 Westy, ratty but drive anywhere.
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