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Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes?
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FlannelShirtGuy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:33 am    Post subject: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

I have purchased a set of thing spindles, and upper and lower arms, eccentrics, etc.... I am going to put them on a 70 bug and keep the full fenders... anyways my question is do bug brakes work on thing spindles? I am looking at upgrading to a set of bolt on disc brakes in the 4 bolt pattern so I can use my stock rims for a bit until I can afford to get a new set with new tires. I would prefer to use the kind that have a nice thick bracket where the backing plate normally bolts and uses the thing spindle. From my research the backing plates on bugs and things are the same, so I would suspect they should fit, just looking for reassurance.
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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

Yes, they work fine.
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However, I had to make a set of splash shields. I found that water splashed up from the tire on the opposite side made the braking non-existent until the pads cleaned the rotor.
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FlannelShirtGuy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

Great thanks for the input! Any chance of a pic of the shield?
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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

Yes sir. I did notice that the caliper bracket was off center until the shield was bolted in between the hanger & the spindle.

TDCTDI wrote:
I have been slack on doing my daily improvements on the Ghiapet so I made myself address an issue that has been bugging me since I've been driving it.

Due to the fact that I'm running a Thing front end, I had to get a disc brake conversion to retain disc brakes on the front. The aftermarket front disc brake conversions commonly available for Beetles do not come with a splash shield. This might not be an issue for most cars but since the Ghiapet has been raised, AND the fact that we seem to be getting 12" of rain a week for the past 7 months Rolling Eyes, the wash from the tires is getting the rotors wet & it takes about 30' for the brakes to dry off before any real braking starts to happen. When it does, one side starts to create friction before the other pulling you in that direction for a split second. Evil or Very Mad

So I started making splash shields, I started with a sheet of metal from the local hardware store & grabbed a couple of old rotors to use as a template/buck.
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And cut out the blank.
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Clamped it between the two rotors...
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And made a great big fu#&*ng bottle cap...
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Since I was not able to get this shaped correctly, I went to the local cheap Chinese tool distributor & purchased a shrinker/stretcher combo. You gotta love being able to justify new tool purchases. Razz
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Once I got it shaped to my liking, I disassembled the brakes & used the caliper bracket as a template for the center of the shield.
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Then cut out the center & trimmed it to fit.
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After that, I installed the hanger & trimmed the shield to clear the caliper.
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Then fit it all together.
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It’s a bit large, perhaps I should have used the smaller rotor as a buck, oh well.

While I was at it, the Chinese bearings would not adjust properly & always had a bit of play even when tightened all the way down leaving about 1/8" of play at the outermost diameter of the tire so I installed new German bearings & races.
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That concludes this episode of "You can listen to the engine moaning out it's one lone song...".

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Double-Double
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

Do you think these backing plates would work with that kit?

https://www.mooreparts.com/empi-22-2849-b-front-di...ight-each/
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

oldschool5er wrote:
Double-Double wrote:
Do you think these backing plates would work with that kit?

https://www.mooreparts.com/empi-22-2849-b-front-di...ight-each/


Those will work with any Ghia brake caliper kit on a ball joint beam.


Ok so they won’t work because of the adapter bracket then? I’m guessing the Ghia spindles have the caliper boly directly to it.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

I modified the thing backing plates to work with the aftermarket disc brake bracket. As my memory is really bad I do recall I did have ghia backing plates at the time and determined modifying the thing backing plates was clearly a better choice. I think because the ghia backing plates did not fit as we’ll with the thing spindles. But again my memory for details sucks.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

I backtracked on this because when I looked at the picture from Moore parts it looked like that version had a ridge that the bracket would not sit flat on. you could mod it to work I believe. probably simple grinding of the ridge. I vaguely remember having to do that on a new pair. the one I am using now I dont have them as running through heavy silt it picked up pebble debris between the rotor and it.
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Double-Double
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

oldschool5er wrote:
I backtracked on this because when I looked at the picture from Moore parts it looked like that version had a ridge that the bracket would not sit flat on. you could mod it to work I believe. probably simple grinding of the ridge. I vaguely remember having to do that on a new pair. the one I am using now I dont have them as running through heavy silt it picked up pebble debris between the rotor and it.


JBugs has a different picture for that part number. It looks like it might fit better, what do you think?

https://www.jbugs.com/product/22-2849-B.html
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:42 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

I know this is a pretty old post but...

I did a thing... I modified some Ghia dust shields for my Thing spindles for my Baja...

EDIT: I used the same dust shields Double Double posted. Although I bought them from CIP1. They worked great as far as I can tell. Only slight modification was needed...

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Mal evolent
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

motorcycles have two front disc brakes, one rear, and no shield. it is expected on automobiles, but by no means necessary.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

Mal evolent wrote:
motorcycles have two front disc brakes, one rear, and no shield. it is expected on automobiles, but by no means necessary.



It is very necessary on the front of a VW, especially when lifted as the wash from the opposing tire constantly soaks the rotor in wet conditions. The only reason that I went to the trouble of making my own shields was due to the almost 50’ -80’ it took for the front brakes to clear the water off before they did anything. When they do finally grab, you’re so hard on the brakes that they almost instantly lock up.


This isn’t an issue for those in arid conditions or for those that are only driven on nice days, but it is a vey real issue for those that drive in the wet & my area has been known to get more annual precipitation than Seattle.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

Mal evolent wrote:
motorcycles have two front disc brakes, one rear, and no shield. it is expected on automobiles, but by no means necessary.


I have to agree with Mal on this one.

Rotors will expel water via centrifugal force. Then the pads wipe water off as it reaches the edge of the pad.

Drums cannot expel much water via centrifugal force, their contact area is on the inner face of a circle. The shoes generally have a chamfered edge, and even if they don't the water is still in the path of the shoe.

I may live in the desert, but I've been in serious rain and floods with drum brakes and with discs. Shielded and not shielded. There are creeks that often run across local roads (that I used to need to use to get to my work down in LA) for months, depending on how much rain and snow the 10,000' high mountains above have received. My experience has been that shielded discs have minor trouble with the shield holding water next to the rotor. Fully exposed discs have VERY LITTLE trouble with water. Semi metallic pads work better in wet than conventional organic fiber (used to contain asbestos, but not since the '70s) pads.

Shields are good for keeping mud off of discs.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
Mal evolent wrote:
motorcycles have two front disc brakes, one rear, and no shield. it is expected on automobiles, but by no means necessary.


I have to agree with Mal on this one.

Rotors will expel water via centrifugal force. Then the pads wipe water off as it reaches the edge of the pad.

Drums cannot expel much water via centrifugal force, their contact area is on the inner face of a circle. The shoes generally have a chamfered edge, and even if they don't the water is still in the path of the shoe.

I may live in the desert, but I've been in serious rain and floods with drum brakes and with discs. Shielded and not shielded. There are creeks that often run across local roads (that I used to need to use to get to my work down in LA) for months, depending on how much rain and snow the 10,000' high mountains above have received. My experience has been that shielded discs have minor trouble with the shield holding water next to the rotor. Fully exposed discs have VERY LITTLE trouble with water. Semi metallic pads work better in wet than conventional organic fiber (used to contain asbestos, but not since the '70s) pads.

Shields are good for keeping mud off of discs.


You can agree with him all you want, the issues I was having in the wet went away after putting shields on. Driving through a water hazard at low speeds is far different than driving on roadways with flowing and/or standing water at 50mph+ & then having to deal other drivers. That when that 50’-80’ is critical.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

I'm late but I'll add that dust shields finish the look but to say they're needed is complete BS..


I have discs and live in one of the rainiest cities in the USA and haven't seen any issues not running a shield.. Lower 48 guys couldn't comprehend the amount of rain we get here (140"-160" annually)..Can tell the 50'-80' story all ya want but doesn't make it true.


Drainage isn't great here as it floods the streets quite often. No issues whatsoever but I drive it with the expectations of it stopping slightly better than a ACVW with drums.. When I had drums you could tell on the rare sunny day my brakes worked better than wet. Swapped to discs and noticed no such difference. Just improvement all around.


The shields do look nice though.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

ekacpuc wrote:
I'm late but I'll add that dust shields finish the look but to say they're needed is complete BS..


I have discs and live in one of the rainiest cities in the USA and haven't seen any issues not running a shield.. Lower 48 guys couldn't comprehend the amount of rain we get here (140"-160" annually)..Can tell the 50'-80' story all ya want but doesn't make it true.


Drainage isn't great here as it floods the streets quite often. No issues whatsoever but I drive it with the expectations of it stopping slightly better than a ACVW with drums.. When I had drums you could tell on the rare sunny day my brakes worked better than wet. Swapped to discs and noticed no such difference. Just improvement all around.


The shields do look nice though.


Imagine brake fade in reverse... oh wait, maybe you have never driven a car aggressively enough for that to happen so that’s as real as leprechaun farts.

Did it happen all the time? No. But when it did, there was a sudden come to Jesus moment that that coerced my slack ass self to do something about it, why in the hell else would I spend a day screwing with making something that otherwise doesn’t do anything for the performance or appearance of the vehicle?!?


Is there any law requiring that shields are installed in new vehicles? I don’t think so yet every auto manufacturer that I know of inexplicably installs these worthless, flimsy pieces of tin on the front & rear of every vehicle that they produced just to piss off the bean counters. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:07 am    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
ekacpuc wrote:
I'm late but I'll add that dust shields finish the look but to say they're needed is complete BS..


I have discs and live in one of the rainiest cities in the USA and haven't seen any issues not running a shield.. Lower 48 guys couldn't comprehend the amount of rain we get here (140"-160" annually)..Can tell the 50'-80' story all ya want but doesn't make it true.


Drainage isn't great here as it floods the streets quite often. No issues whatsoever but I drive it with the expectations of it stopping slightly better than a ACVW with drums.. When I had drums you could tell on the rare sunny day my brakes worked better than wet. Swapped to discs and noticed no such difference. Just improvement all around.


The shields do look nice though.


Imagine brake fade in reverse... oh wait, maybe you have never driven a car aggressively enough for that to happen so that’s as real as leprechaun farts.

Did it happen all the time? No. But when it did, there was a sudden come to Jesus moment that that coerced my slack ass self to do something about it, why in the hell else would I spend a day screwing with making something that otherwise doesn’t do anything for the performance or appearance of the vehicle?!?


Is there any law requiring that shields are installed in new vehicles? I don’t think so yet every auto manufacturer that I know of inexplicably installs these worthless, flimsy pieces of tin on the front & rear of every vehicle that they produced just to piss off the bean counters. Rolling Eyes





lol I'm a stupid kid with a 2332... Yeah unfortunately I've driven a car aggressively.



So... Ever wonder if maybe you just failed to bleed the brakes properly? Sounds like the problem you've experienced. You're the only one i've seen mention rain causing issues with discs..


The dust shields are for... DUST lol. They do complete the look though I must say. I sometimes go the extra mile for a completed factory look too, nothing wrong with that but to say the rain hurts disc brake efficiency is a stretch.



Good luck Wink



Oh and I saw it was answered but I suppose I'll add... I did the thing spindles in my current baja (72 standard beetle) and everything for bug brakes has fit the thing spindles.


I did swap to a super beetle speedo cable (longer) but I wouldn't say it was needed.


IIRC I used bus brake hoses (longer) and I doubt the bug brake hoses would be short..


I ran the 72 bug drums for awhile then swapped to discs. In fact the only thing that's actually from a thing are the ball joints, everything else I've purchased has been for a bug (brakes, wheel bearings and such). The discs I have use the bracket.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Things spindles on bug, but what about brakes? Reply with quote

NO DUST SHIELDS on my 11x car....rocks can get stuck in side between shield & rotor !!
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