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QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1712 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:14 pm Post subject: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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Seeing if anyone knows how much offset type 3 brakes will add to the rear? |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26788 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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As compared with what? |
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QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1712 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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modok wrote: |
As compared with what? |
Oops, guess I should've mentioned that.
Compared to a type 1
Lets say putting them on a 66 or earlier type 1 |
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b-man Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 499 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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Was looking into that myself and after measuring both drums from the mounting face to the back edge the difference in width was pretty much equal to the difference in brake shoe width.
30mm for the Type I versus 46mm for the Type III.
The Type III drums will push the wheels out by 16mm or approximately .630” per side. _________________ 1956 Dove Blue Panel
1966 Velvet Green Single Cab
1957 L41 Black Oval Window Beetle |
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QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1712 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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b-man wrote: |
Was looking into that myself and after measuring both drums from the mounting face to the back edge the difference in width was pretty much equal to the difference in brake shoe width.
30mm for the Type I versus 46mm for the Type III.
The Type III drums will push the wheels out by 16mm or approximately .630” per side. |
Thanks b-man
Was yours an early wide 5 type 3 ?
Would the later 4 lug type 3 be the same offset? |
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b-man Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 499 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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I was comparing 1958 bug and 1965 wide-5 Type III drums.
I would imagine the difference in 4-lug drums would be the same. _________________ 1956 Dove Blue Panel
1966 Velvet Green Single Cab
1957 L41 Black Oval Window Beetle |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5481 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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b-man wrote: |
Was looking into that myself and after measuring both drums from the mounting face to the back edge the difference in width was pretty much equal to the difference in brake shoe width.
30mm for the Type I versus 46mm for the Type III.
The Type III drums will push the wheels out by 16mm or approximately .630” per side. |
Can you get that measurement from the inside end of the hub instead of the inside edge of the drum? Where the inside of the shoes end can be effected by the backing plate design and the type 3 may be different in that compared to the type 1.
What 1958 brake drum were you comparing too? The early style with the smooth taper on the outside center is different than the replacement style with the reinforcing grooves on the face.
When setting up my buggy I wanted to keep the tires under the fender but make that fender full to the outer edge so I did a little research on rear brakes and track width. I ended up using short axles with '66-'67 type drums (usually sold as Beetle '58-'67 rear drums.)
Using the 1958-1964 original rear brake drum with the smooth face as a reference point:
'66-'67 ribbed face drum adds 6mm to track per side
'68-up 4 lug drum adds 10mm to track per side
Thing wide 5 drums add 32mm to track per side
long axles ('67-'68 ) add 29mm to the track per side
Look at that range! Starting with an older chassis you could use stock parts to widen the rear track up to 4.8 inches overall. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1712 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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Thanks for the info guys.
I'm gonna remove the the rear drum and hub from my squareback and get an exact measurement. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26788 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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I have a 1960 drum, and some four lug type-3 in a crate, could measure those
five lug type-3 are on the car, can't measure.
Although speaking of that, I don't think I'd do it again.
Rather use bus or aftermarket heavy duty drums on late bug backing plates. |
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QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1712 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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modok wrote: |
I have a 1960 drum, and some four lug type-3 in a crate, could measure those
five lug type-3 are on the car, can't measure.
Although speaking of that, I don't think I'd do it again.
Rather use bus or aftermarket heavy duty drums on late bug backing plates. |
Thanks Modok
Actually I think pulling my drum and hub from the squareback is probably better, then I can just test fit it and check for clearance.
Right now on my 68 ghia I have short axles, stock ghia brakes and running 205/65s on Rivieras and the fit is really good.
Now I'm swapping out the Riviera's for 15x6 fake fuchs and the same tires.
It looks like a half inch spacer will get the wheels back into the right spot again but personally I hate spacers.
So I was thinking the type 3 might have just the right amount to get it perfect without the spacer.
The setup from the squareback is already drilled and studded for 5x130 anyway.
Last edited by QRP on Sat May 08, 2021 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26788 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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Interesting.
Five lug of the smaller kind |
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QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1712 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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modok wrote: |
Interesting.
Five lug of the smaller kind |
Small. 5x130 lug pattern.
I'll make sure I take some measurement and post. |
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catarinoforlife Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2009 Posts: 226 Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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Don't forget that if you're using a short axle, you'll need to have the snout of the drum (where the castle nut goes) is turned down. I think I had mine turned down 9/16" for my '66 Type 1. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21519 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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modok wrote: |
I have a 1960 drum, and some four lug type-3 in a crate, could measure those
five lug type-3 are on the car, can't measure.
Although speaking of that, I don't think I'd do it again.
Rather use bus or aftermarket heavy duty drums on late bug backing plates. |
Reason why you would not do it again?.....
Just wondering. I cannot speak for the five lug type 3 drums.....but the 4x130 type 3 drums that are available are just miserable in quality. The casting and material.....are ok.....but the machine work is generally a problem.
Just my experience.....but About 6 out of 10 have the friction surface area turned out of round to the center hole and wheel bolt holes.
By the time you get the pedal adjusted to not give a constant helicopter drag effect.....you have poor pedal. If you keep them adjusted correctly for good stopping....and just grit your teeth and bear the drag issue at low speed.....they eventually warp if you do a lpt of medium speed stop and go traffic.
My last experiences were with brazilian drums about 8 years ago....and many before that. I hope they have gotten better in quality.
The aftermarket type 3 drums are all one piece cast. The factory drums are two piece. They have a flat, steel center plate welded to the outer friction ring. That construction helped to make a more concentric drum that stayed straight.
Ray |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26788 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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The type-3 rear has several design compromises, which allowed the same shoes to be used front and rear.
It is larger brake, but it isn't any more rigid, and I'm at a loss for finding any way to make it work better at high speeds. Going to more aggressive friction material would make the flex problems and uneven shoe wear worse than it already is.
On my buggy I have the usual sturdy steel wheels, 5-lug on late type-1, and I eventually realized the wheels were warping the drums because the lug nut seats weren't quite right. Once I re-machined the lug bolts to a different ball diameter to mesh with whatever odd angle the wheels had, the warp was gone and it works really better than it should for what it is. I actually think it is working BETTER than four lug drum because the sturdy wheel is adding rigidity to the drum.
In the FRONT, I think dual leading shoes or disks are the only real solutions.
but for the rear IMO there is nothing really wrong with the type-1 design, I would just get some very sturdy drums and fine tune as needed.
And speaking of that, if you need some of the four lug OE type-3 drums, I won't be needing them.....
Last edited by modok on Sun May 09, 2021 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5481 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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I know more about the T3 brakes now! It left me with a thought to add. The rear brakes on the early 924 US non-turbo models are basically the same brakes as the '68 up Bug. They use a 19mm wheel cylinder. That provides another option if your goal is to slightly increase the power of the rear brakes if needed to improve brake balance (like powerful discs up front.) _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21519 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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modok wrote: |
The type-3 rear has several design compromises, which allowed the same shoes to be used front and rear.
It is larger brake, but it isn't any more rigid, and I'm at a loss for finding any way to make it work better at high speeds. Going to more aggressive friction material would make the flex problems and uneven shoe wear worse than it already is.
On my buggy I have the usual sturdy steel wheels, 5-lug, and I eventually realized the wheels were warping the drums because the lug nut seats weren't quite right. Once I re-machined the lug bolts to a different ball diameter to mesh with whatever odd angle the wheels had, the warp was gone and it works really better than it should for what it is. I actually think it is working BETTER than four lug drum because the sturdy wheel is adding rigidity to the drum.
In the FRONT, I think dual leading shoes or disks are the only real solutions.
but for the rear IMO there is nothing really wrong with the type-1 design, I would just get some very sturdy drums and fine tune as needed.
And speaking of that, if you need some of the four lug OE type-3 drums, I won't be needing them..... |
Were these the one piece cast drums (which are all aftermarket) or the two piece welded all steel drums (which were original equipment)?
The cast aftermarket...."seem" to be more rigid than the stock two piece.....just poorly machined. The factory two piece.....as I think you found and described....are only as flat and sturdy as the hub that is holding them. They must be held very flat to the stub axle. Any warpage and there is not enough meat to the welded in center plate where it bolts on....to prevent the welded on drum ring from twisting.
But yes...agree...that on stock type 3 and 4 cars ...they work very well...but there are issues with the stock type 3 rear brakes. Its why I am moving to disk.
Ray |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26788 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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5-lug, I think they are Italian made, or some other european country. I think they are decent and I was satisfied with them at first.
I also have a few sets of the OE four lug type3 drums, I was planning on using them at some point but I think I have changed my mind.
I did not know they have made aftermarket drums one piece, but does not surprise me, I have fought with other aftermarket drums made that way.
Reproduction chrysler ones I remember well, runout everywhere, nowhere near even wall thickness and definitely not balanced. I did my best with what was there.
I know restricting myself to drum brakes..... I only get one panic stop from high speed, but that one panic stop needs to be as predictable and smooth as possible, and the bigger type-3 drums are no better at that. Made sense at the time, but the reality of driving an archaic museum exhibit is changing.
I think I can get equal or better performance out of a type-1 drum, just more possibilities. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26788 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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hard to explain and I'm not sure if i understand it fully myself..... but, lets say....
The occasional strange braking behavior at high speeds which is bugging me, is due to.... the shoes shifting around on the abutments, or the build up of dust, rust, water and/or and unidentifyable goop, is actually worse with the larger brake shoes than it is with the small ones.
Seems to work very counterintuitive and all the things I try that don't work better sure has been frustrating.
one time.... 63 bug front brakes....started acting a bit grabby, I found the leading shoes were totally stuck in the abutments and one of the springs was gone once I fixed it good as new, actually worked slightly worse. The shoes had been being stuck in the abutments for a long time, and eventually it became grabby, but PRIOR to that it was actually working BETTER than usual. Real face-palm stuff. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21519 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 rear brake offset? |
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modok wrote: |
hard to explain and I'm not sure if i understand it fully myself..... but, lets say....
The occasional strange braking behavior at high speeds which is bugging me, is due to.... the shoes shifting around on the abutments, or the build up of dust, rust, water and/or and unidentifyable goop, is actually worse with the larger brake shoes than it is with the small ones.
Seems to work very counterintuitive and all the things I try that don't work better sure has been frustrating.
one time.... 63 bug front brakes....started acting a bit grabby, I found the leading shoes were totally stuck in the abutments and one of the springs was gone once I fixed it good as new, actually worked slightly worse. The shoes had been being stuck in the abutments for a long time, and eventually it became grabby, but PRIOR to that it was actually working BETTER than usual. Real face-palm stuff. |
I have had that issue on type 3/4 drum brakes. I always kind of assigned it to the way the shoes are held down.....combined with the width issue......and I think.....the way the spar or mounting rib that is attached to the shoe.....is centered.
So to explain.....the type 3 shoe is full width of the friction area turned onto the drum. Not much gap between the outer edge of the shoe and the corner in the drum where the flat mounting plate meets the friction surface....so yes....crud build up there can drag.
But.....if the mounting spar for the shoe is not welded on exactly cenetered (or maybe its designed to be off center by an exact amount)......the shoe stands off of the backing plate....outward. it can drag and catch on the corner area inside the drum.
Being that it stands off a little....ot also seems to affect how well the spring and 1/4 turn washer assembly holds it down and how well it meets up with the star adjusters and the upper spacer plate and wheel cylinder piston notches.
When I ran out of factort drums.....and had to move to cast Brazilian drums....I had worse fit issues on some. I could never pin it down to whether it was exactly a drum issue or a shoe mounting spar issue or a combination of both. At that point in time I was using Mintex shoes. Superb friction material. A real upgrade.......but I had one side that had a tendency to drag when it heated up. Ray |
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