Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Replacing Piston Rings
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Maximillion
Samba Member


Joined: August 07, 2016
Posts: 46
Location: Seattle, WA
Maximillion is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:19 am    Post subject: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

Hey there,

Just to be blunt: I am a total noob who plans to learn about engines by taking one apart (and hopefully fixing it?). I have a 1600 dual port from a Ghia that is/was in my '65 bus. The bus sat for a few years and the engine lost compression. When I got back to it I didn't know that yet so I changed the oil and fired it up but really had to rev it high to move anywhere. I got the engine out and took all the bits off and took off both heads. Going to buy a soda blaster and clean everything real well. I have not taken the pieces of metal that go around the pistons off yet but saw a video where the guy took a rubber mallet to them to allow them to slide off the studs. Right now I can just look at the carbon coated piston ... flat parts? faces? Sorry, my terminology is not quite there yet!

From my understanding of compression this has to do with either the rings or the metal pieces that fit around the pistons.

The real question: What should I be looking at/measuring/doing while I have this hunk of metal taking up half my shop? Can I just take it apart, clean it real well, replace the rings, put it back together, and assume it will run? Also, this was about three years ago that I tested the compression (I had posted a pic asking about the center of gravity and had a hoard of people tell me I was going to kill people on the highway because the trailer was really just good for lawn mowers lol... despite wanting to cart this thing across the country for cheap I listened to them and hired someone to ship it... thank you if you posted there) so it could have other problems. From what I recall of my foggy memory of driving this thing across the country a bunch of times in my youth the clutch slipped a lot especially in high gear if that makes sense, like up hills on the highway... kinda weird! I noticed there were little steel loops between the engine and the transmission that were almost worn clean through when I took the engine off - maybe that has something to do with it?

Happy to post pictures of stuff too if that helps.

-Max
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26740
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:30 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

That's quite the ramble. Ok I'll bite Razz
Me answering a novice question on piston rings is a bit like using a sledgehammer as a flyswatter. Not the right "tool" for the job? Laughing
ON the other hand, you could just read a book or google it if you wanted normal advice for normal people, so lets do this.

General advice about piston rings SHOULD go like this:
#1-IF you remove the piston from the cylinder the rings should be replaced.

#2 IF the rings are to be replaced...... first
the piston ring grooves should be measured to see the ring side clearance is ok.
the piston skirts should be measured to make sure the skirt size...( and/or skirt clearance) is in spec,
and the cylinder should be honed, and measured to make sure it's in spec for size and roundness/taper

"Can I JUST replace the rings and leave everything else alone?"
Is like asking can I JUST replace the brake pads and not even look at the brake rotor....... same situation.
The answer is "maybe sometimes depending" If the brake rotor is too smooth, or too rough, or too warped, your brakes are not going to work right.
If it IS good enough it will work fine, but not knowing 100% is flying blind.
With brake pads it's a chance worth taking in many cases, but with piston rings it is usually not worth the risk.
I suppose the other difference is a brake rotor might live to need 3 brake pads while the average piston usually only lasts about 1.5 sets of rings.

So, why do they even sell rings separately?
You could be tearing down the engine for other reasons and elect to hone cylinders and replace the rings while you have it apart, or sometimes rings are just bad from the start, or get damaged by fuel wash and need to be replaced.

Overall I'd GUESS there is a
75% chance you will end up buying a new piston and cylinder set,
15% chance it's other problems are found, cylinders and pistons ok, and honing and re-ringing will make them better than new.
5% chance that you could just replace the rings and that would be a good idea if the piston and cylinder are in good shape and you get the correct kind of rings that will seat without honing.
5% other
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Maximillion
Samba Member


Joined: August 07, 2016
Posts: 46
Location: Seattle, WA
Maximillion is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

modok wrote:
That's quite the ramble. Ok I'll bite Razz


Haha thank you!! I really appreciate it and the analogy to brakes as I have definitely replaced brakes the wrong way before. That said, I plan to replace the piston cylinder too (I guess this is the word I was looking for!). If the piston itself only lasts for 1.5 sets of rings I should probably replace those too... Time to buy some stuff!

Thanks for your help modok.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Cusser
Samba Member


Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31268
Location: Hot Arizona
Cusser is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

Instead of just re-ringing, I suggest a complete 85.5mm/1600cc piston/cylinder/ring kit.

I used such in my own 1600cc engine in 2016, I used Moresa (used by VW of Mexico) from CB Performance.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
volksworld
Samba Member


Joined: November 26, 2011
Posts: 2525
Location: formerly NY currently NC
volksworld is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

by the time you buy all the stuff necessary to do all the measurements( mike, bore gauge ,feeler gauges) then get a ring groove cleaner(trying to clean a ring groove with a piece of a broken ring without screwing it up is so much fun) then a cylinder hone( there are various types with varying degrees of accuracy) you would have spent half as much buying a piston and cylinder set and everything will be new and properly sized...usually the end result of a re-ring is an engine that behaves like a decent running engine with 50,000 miles on it rather than a new one...be thankful you have the ability to throw it all out and start over, unlike the water cooled v8 and inline 4 community that has to wrestle with these decisions constantly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Bruce Amacker
Samba Member


Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 1786
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Bruce Amacker is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

I agree with all responses. If you have plenty of time to burn and are concerned about money, measure, hone, and re-ring. If you value your time buy a new P/C set, it takes several hours to clean and check a set.

I am a purist and have built some engines with OEG P/Cs to stay original. Measure, hone, clean, and use a soft cast ring that seats in quickly.

Good Luck!
_________________
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus
Build threads:
'66- http://www.leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2888&sid=54d8dedfb3822f99c7f2ea430cb4e856
'65- http://leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4263
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Rome
Samba Member


Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 9602
Location: Pearl River, NY
Rome is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

Quote:
I noticed there were little steel loops between the engine and the transmission that were almost worn clean through when I took the engine off - maybe that has something to do with it?
Those sound like the 2 hooks/clips that hold each side of the clutch throw-out bearing to the swinging fork that comes down from the transmission. There's also another style that does not have the small full-circle loop on the one end. http://vwparts.aircooled.net/HD-Spring-Loaded-T-O-Bearing-Clips-Early-Pair-p/111-141-177ahd-pr.htm

Since you have your cylinder heads off, take a look at the faces of each of the 8 valves. It's possible that there is a small "chip' broken off/worn at the edge of a valve head, which would cause the cylinder compression pressure to quickly pass by the chip. Such chips tend to form more on the smaller exhaust valve due to the extreme combustion heat that passes by it.

There are 2 good engine manuals to help you as a beginner: The "compleat idiot" manual by John Muir (also covers other mechanical systems such as brakes; the manual covers Beetle/Ghia/Bus/Type 3), and "How to rebuild your aircooled VW engine" by Tom Wilson. Have the manual next to you at the engine so that the photos make sense on your engine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Maximillion
Samba Member


Joined: August 07, 2016
Posts: 46
Location: Seattle, WA
Maximillion is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

Folks I can't thank you enough for all of this! I think this is exactly what I needed to hear. I will proceed with buying a new set of pistons and cylinders as I'm more tight on time these days. I will also get my hands on a copy of the Tom Wilson book. The John Muir book is already pretty brown from all the oil and dirty brake fluid haha.

You mention a few types to buy (Moresa and OEG) and also mentioned cleaning and checking a set. I'm fine just buying one of these two, but do you just go off reviews to decide where to buy or is there something in particular that you look for? Also is cleaning and checking a set just a measuring process or is this a more involved procedure that I would find in that book?

Also Rome those are the exact little metal things that are getting all eroded by... something? Not sure, but I'm definitely going to buy some more! Maybe this is an issue with putting a 70's Ghia motor in a 60's Bus? Those clips go between the transmission (Bus) and engine (Ghia), so just my 'basic troubleshooting' lol.

Thanks again for such thoughtful replies to such a rant of a post. I trust this community so much - I doubt my bus would still be alive without y'all!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
nsracing
Samba Member


Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9437
Location: NOVA
nsracing is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:31 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

Kind of like everyone's 'first time' - you had an idea where to put it. But how to proceed is the kicker. Do you point it ...or aim it? Laughing

Next time around, you don't even think about it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26740
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:07 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

If your transmission is like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then you use this kind of pressure plate
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26740
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:07 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

if your transmission is like this
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then you use a pressure plate like this
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Maximillion
Samba Member


Joined: August 07, 2016
Posts: 46
Location: Seattle, WA
Maximillion is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

Oh my, I am definitely mixing those up. My transmission has that F shaped lever thing and my pressure plate has all the teeth in the center. I put a lot of miles on that combo back in the day. Maybe that's why my clutch always seemed to slip. I assumed it was the engine's used-ness the whole time (pulled from Ghia that was getting sliced in half, popped into Bus). Which do you think is easier to replace, the pressure plate or the transmission ... joining end? Or is that just replacing the transmission?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Dale M.
Samba Member


Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20365
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
Dale M. is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

Maximillion wrote:
Oh my, I am definitely mixing those up. My transmission has that F shaped lever thing and my pressure plate has all the teeth in the center. I put a lot of miles on that combo back in the day. Maybe that's why my clutch always seemed to slip. I assumed it was the engine's used-ness the whole time (pulled from Ghia that was getting sliced in half, popped into Bus). Which do you think is easier to replace, the pressure plate or the transmission ... joining end? Or is that just replacing the transmission?



ITs all about whether the transmission/pressure plate/throw out bearing combination requires a ring or not.... Generally you get a pressure plate that matches trans type.... IT not rocket science ..... On most pressure plates the ring can be added or removed as necessary....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Maximillion
Samba Member


Joined: August 07, 2016
Posts: 46
Location: Seattle, WA
Maximillion is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

Okay! Thank you Dale, that makes a lot of sense. Well folks, once my parts and soda blaster arrives I’ll post some photos of the progress! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Maximillion
Samba Member


Joined: August 07, 2016
Posts: 46
Location: Seattle, WA
Maximillion is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

So this took a while, and while only in the teardown steps I'm already running into a 'noob' issue here. The Tom Wilson book says there are 13 case seam 'fasteners' (bolts, studs) for the Type 1-3 engines. My case number is U0426744 which I understand from (https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/engine_letters.php) that this is a Type 3 engine (AFAIK it was pulled from a Ghia that suffered an odd fate, the car was sliced in half lengthwise). I am actually seeing 15 fasteners not counting the 6 big ones by the cylinders. I'm not too worried as I plan to take all the stuff apart to at least clean it out.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I am unsure of a few things: I had to use a vice grip to take out two of the studs, but some of the studs have a really small tip sticking out. Is there an 'expected' way to remove these properly? I usually use the two-nut trick but some of these studs don't have enough sticking out to do that. Should I just vice grip 'em all out and buy new ones?

Lastly one of the nuts looks 'extra special' - is this something that I need to get more of if I wreck 'em or will normal ones (like off the shelf at HD) work well?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26740
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

That is a sealing nut, missing the seal.
Vw used these sealing nuts in a few locatons, such as the oil pump cover.
They arent very useful, A good flange nut and thread sealant is totally superior.

You do not need to remove any studs.

Except maybe two of the oil pump studs.... IF the oil pump is totally stuck in there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
calvinater
Samba Member


Joined: September 06, 2014
Posts: 3306
Location: 802
calvinater is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:57 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

i have that same kitchenaid mixer, but it lives in the kitchen.
what do you use it for in the shop?
_________________
"Albatross"!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vwinnovator
Samba Member


Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1555
Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
vwinnovator is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: Replacing Piston Rings Reply with quote

calvinater wrote:
i have that same kitchenaid mixer, but it lives in the kitchen.
what do you use it for in the shop?


variable speed drill press Think
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.