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First Time Engine Refurbishment
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:00 pm    Post subject: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

Hey all, if the mods want to move this to the engine forum, go ahead. I felt it fit better here since it's staying stock. Anyway, My bug has been running weird lately, passenger side valves getting tight and whatnot. I decided enough was enough and dropped the engine last night. Took me about an hour, which for my first time I thought was rather quick. I pulled the tins off and the passenger side had some serious mice action going on. No wonder it overheated, that's coupled with my thermostat flaps being stuck closed and no thermostat Shocked I would like to thank the unnamed shop that did it's first rebuild 15 years ago before I got it for that. So the engine is a 1971 AE 1600 SP case. I think they just swapped out the 1500 ancillaries and whatever they could back in '07 onto a new case judging by the receipt. So, I got the tin off and I'm looking at the head studs, it's still rocking 10mm's. It looks like one is backed out, but then again one on the other side looks backed out too and there are no problems with that side. Is there a way to check, as I'd really rather not split the case. One of the nuts is definitely loose, thinking a re-torque is in order. I shot a video to show what's up as well as pictures.
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Link


Anyone have any advice? I'm right out of my wheelhouse, I should be straightening a quarter panel somewhere Laughing
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Pruneman99
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

The head studs don't necessarily need to be threaded all the way into the case where no threads are seen from the outside. You definitely have some loose studs though.

Personally, I would clean up all the mouse house, pull the rockers out, and re-torque the heads. Then reinstall the rockers and adjust.

The flaps "should" fail open, unless they were jammed or rigged closed for some reason.

It would probably be best to take it down to the short block and re-do the top end completely, but I've gotten away with just a re-torque.

It kinda just depends on what you want to do here. I'm a gambling man when it comes to VW engines tho. Laughing
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

Short block meaning take the heads and jugs off? The flaps seem stuck in place by the mice so that shroud is getting cleaned out good. I want to repair as much as possible within reason so I don't have to do this again.
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

You probably already know this, but use some kind of protection when cleaning out the mouse refuse. The whole bit, rubber gloves, some kind of mask.
They don't mean to, but mice can spread some nasty stuff in what they leave behind.
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 12:42 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

Short block, yeah pull the heads and the cylinders. You will need to re-hone the cylinders and replace the rings. But this will let you see the chambers in the heads to see if there was any flame cutting where the heads were leaking.

A new piston and cylinder set is pretty inexpensive. Head work, or new heads are more coin.

But before you do, check the end play on the crank. If its excessive, it lets you know the bottom is is getting worn out as well. If you put a fresh top end on a worn bottom end, you might be headed for problems.

If you start taking stuff apart, just be prepared to fall down the rabbit hole.

That's why I would just re-torque the heads and go from there unless you are ready to get stuck into it.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

Right, I’ll check the play. I think it was pretty good but I’ll check again. Probably gonna pull the heads and the studs to see if any are stripped.
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Rome
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

Quote:
Probably gonna pull the heads
I strongly recommend to replace all 4 exhaust valves, and lap in the new ones. The stock valve springs are supposed to go on one way, with the more tightly-wound end against the head. Clean the heads well in solvent and blow out the fins with compressed air (wear mask and goggles). Careful with the spark plug hole threads... Chase the exhaust stud threads with a M8 x 1.25 mm die. The SP intake manifold attachment studs are M6 x 1.0.

Engine tin: Degrease and derust, prime with sandable filler/primer and wet sand with 320 or 400. Paint with Rust-O-Leum semi-gloss black for a close to factory appearance. Not full gloss, not satin.

Adhere to the head nut fastening torque sequence exactly as per the Bentley manual or other sources. The idea is to start with a low torque setting and work your way from the center nuts outward in a diagonal sequence. Then go to the final torque setting and use a slightly different sequence to run them tight. Also, use a sealant on the underside of the 4 head nut's washers that are inside the rocker chamber- place the sealanted side against the head. This helps prevent small oil leaks from the rocker chambers where oil can work its way between the washer contact surface with the head, then out the head's holes for the head studs.

You can take the rocker arms apart and clean them all in solvent and a wire brush bench grinder wheel (goggles), then lube and reassemble. This also give the benefit of removing all 8 valve adjusters so that you can turn them by hand and not use force if they are not rotating easily when you are on your back doing the valve adjustments. Note that the threads for the valve adjusters are finer pitch than most other M8 bolts on the engine: adjusters: M8 x 1.0 mm; all other M8 are 1.25 pitch. With the adjusters out of the rockers, spray the small lube holes in the rockers with the straw from a carb or brake cleaner can (goggles!) so that the engine oil runs through them. Here's one of my cleaned-up rocker assemblies. You can see the lube hole in the 3rd from left rocker, in its center bore.
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I use a hand-held plumbing pipe wire brush to run through the rocker center bores.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

Thanks for the detailed post Rome! Bought the paint for tins tonight and started dissembling. I checked every head stud and none are buggered up. So that's good to go. Definitely some wicked mouse action everywhere to get cleaned. I pulled the heads and jugs. Jugs are good, need to be cleaned, heads are a different story. They're a 1300 part number. One is VW, one is MIG. Either way, they're not the right size for my 1500 and are probably gonna mess my engine up somehow. Unfortunate because that MIG one is probably only 13 years old.
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Rome
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

Quote:
I pulled the heads and jugs. Jugs are good, need to be cleaned, heads are a different story. They're a 1300 part number.
Will you keep those 77 mm pistons and cylinders together with the heads? If so, you should do some cylinder prep. Sand down the top lip of the cylinder where it meets the head, by placing it on a piece of flat glass such as a mirror tile and 220 wet sandpaper. Lap the cylinder until the entire thickness of the top lip is sanded. Crude but effective. I use a clipboard with a 2nd clip mechanism on the other end of the board to hold down the tile and sandpaper.

Next, put the cylinder into its designated location on the respective head- i hope you marked the piston/cylinder and the head just after taking one head off so that you can put the cyl. back into the same combustion chamber. Before you put the cyl. into the head, spread a thin coat of valve grinding compound onto the cyl. lip. Use a back/forth rotating motion with your hands to lap the cyl. into the head. After every ~ 15 rubs, lift the cyl. and turn it 1/4 turn, then repeat. You'll notice that the combustion chamber outer edge will get a nice ring in it the exact width of the cyl. lip when you are all done. This work helps to seal the cyl. to the head once the head is tightened. I made a simple tool out of an inverted rubber-cone toilet bowl plunger that I can fit into a drill chuck and do this lapping quickly using a slow drill speed.

If you want to go with 83 mm P/C for a true 1500, or 85.5 mm (1600) or even 88 mm "thick-wall" for 1679 cc, the 1300 heads will need to be bored for the larger diameter of the any of those cylinders. The 83 & 85.5 mm use the same diameter, and the 88's use the dia. of 90.5 cyl. Reasoning is that if the machine shop is going to do this work anyway, it won't be any more work for them to set up to the larger diameter of the 88's, and you thereby get slightly more displacement. Remember that the 1300's heads use smaller valve sizes than those on 1500/1600 SP heads, but that's OK if the rest of the heads are usable and have no cracks in the usual places in the combustion chamber.

I can recommend stainless steel stock-style pushrod tubes simply for longevity. Use the ivory-colored pushrod tube seals instead of the brick red ones; the ivory ones hold up much better. Don't forget to snap on the air deflector tin under each pair of cylinders upon assembly, BEFORE putting the pushrod tubes in.
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

If I can offer some insight, having worked on a couple of engines here and there.. The only real reason to remove the pistons and cylinders would be to replace them, or to reseal a leak at the case-to-cylinder interface. If it's not leaking, and you don't intend to replace them.. let them be.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 6:05 am    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

I don’t know if I should keep the heads, I don’t know if they’ve been machined either. When the shop put the new block in, they also put rings and I mean I can’t imagine they put 1300 rings in a 1600. I’ll have to measure. Ideally I want at least a real 1500. I understand VWs are slow, but when my max cruising speed is like 55-60 (yes I know there are more problems) then it’s just unsafe in my opinion. Scrivy, this engine is like an EPA nightmare. Leaks everywhere except from the oil drain Laughing definitely needed to be done lol.
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

Just got back from rescuing a Dodge.... measured the jugs and they’re 77mm it looks. Not happy. It’s a 1300 disguised by a 1600 case.
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

An interesting discovery, one head is a 1300 head that's been machined to 1500. The other is a 1300. Now for the opinions. My buddy is trying to convince me to go 1641 over 1600. I was just gonna order 85.5mm pistons and jugs from ebay, but I'm not sure.
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:57 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

You ended up with a true "sweep the floor" engine with such mismatched parts... Once again, a 1600 cylinder (85.5 mm) won't fit into the 1300 head because the 77 mm's cylinder has a smaller diameter than the 85.5 and the head chamber's diameters conform to the cylinders' diameters. Since you need to machine one head, you might as well have both machined to the size that accepts the thick-wall 88 mm cylinders and get 1679 cc. The machinist's labor time to set up his machinery for the 85.5 mm on the one head will be nearly the same to set up for the 88's, then do the 2nd head with the same settings from the first head. Cost for the 1641 (87 mm) pistons/cylinders is nearly the same as for the TW 88's but the TW 88's are much more durable due to the much thicker cylinder walls.
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

See that’s the thing, I wasn’t planning on machine work. I was either going to buy a 15-1600 head and put it on or steal one from my buddy. I knew when I saw the 1300 head that it had to go because there was no way 1600 stuff would fit in. I’m not exactly going for power either, that’s why I was trying to stick with stock sizes. I was leaning toward 1600 since there’s like no difference between it and 1641 except the thinner cylinder walls. The piston kit I was looking at is made by SKP.
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Rome
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

Quote:
I wasn’t planning on machine work. I was either going to buy a 15-1600 head and put it on
OK, makes sense. But with one head being the 1300 and the other a 1500/1600, you'll have mismatched valve sizes and possibly different combustion chamber volumes. It'll run fine with the uniform piston size. Valve size differences between the two heads will also be OK for your first time top-end refresh but just make sure to order the right sized exhaust valves.

You should learn to "cc" the combustion chambers, at least one from each head, and you could grind out material from the smaller-volume chambers at home using a carbide burr on a drill to match the volume, or come within a cc or 2 of the other head. Probably will even work to use a very small sanding disc from your welding bead grinding with 100 grit paper, but those will load up quickly from the aluminum. Measure the deck height on one piston/cylinder on each side of the engine. You can do this on the cheap with feeler gauges, or buy a basic digital caliper for ~ $20- it's a tool you'll use alot for other parts of the engine. If there is a slight difference in DH from one side of the engine to the other, use the tighter decked side with the head that has the larger combustion chamber.

Since you are quite handy, you can make your own "cc" disk out of some flat scrap plexiglass at least 1/8" thick; traced to the size of the combustion chamber edge, cut with a fine-blade jigsaw and drill an approx. 1/2" hole in the center. Use stepped drill sizes so that the plexi does not melt or crack compared to using a 1/2" size from the start. Find a 60 cc or 100 cc plastic syringe on line, and use either water, or ATF (the color makes it easy to see the syringe graduations) as the filling fluid. You could use a 50 cc syringe but if your chambers are larger than 50 (unlikely), you'll need to make a 2nd squirt which increases the chance of a reading error. Have the spark plug installed, level the head with some pieces of scrap wood, and place newspaper under the head so that any fluid getting past the valves drips onto the paper and not your workbench. Plenty of YouTube videos on how to cc VW heads. You reuse the fluid/ATF after each try. I suggest testing the volume twice on each chamber to compare results and for practice, then take the average value. Clean your checking fluid out after the first try using paper towel and (if ATF) brake cleaner spray. Write the volume onto the head with a permanent marker, and then write the intended side of the engine on the head so that once you reassemble, you'll identify the heads without guessing.

Here's a frequently used compression ratio calculator: http://cbperformance.com/v/enginecalc.html
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

I'll look up how to do the CC thing. Also Rome, sent you a PM.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

See my resto thread, but it’s kind of okay Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

This thread was made for someone like you in mind. If it were me Id definitely break it all the way down and at least put new bearings and a cam. New heads and P&C are a given with what youve found already

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=513083


These pistons
https://aapistons.com/products/vw-88mm-type-1-cyli...&_ss=r

I usually recommend these heads but are out of stock
https://aapistons.com/products/stock-head-w-seats-and-guides-35-5mm-intake-32mm-exhaust

To keep things simple order the heads and cam from CB

OE foundry head replacement. this is a recently new casting, not sure on the quality of hardware.
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1656.htm (remember to order opened up for 90/92 bore)

'cheater' cam and lifters
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2280.htm
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1512.htm


Case and cam bearings are a roll of the dice these days so measuring is extra important.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: First Time Engine Refurbishment Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
The piston kit I was looking at is made by SKP.


Was that the SKP 85.5 kit on Rockauto? If so, I recently looked that those too. I ran away when I realized there is no 'pin' included. Rather strange in my opinion.

I've had good luck with AA pistons/cylinders before. (I used thick 88's). I tried the rings that came in the box, but they never set up for me. I had a subsequent do-over at about 800 miles. At that point I used Grant rings and never looked back. They sealed up instantly and have been great.

I just purchased a set of 85.5 AA's, complete with pins and they should arrive tomorrow. Grant 85.5 rings are already here waiting.

/Mark
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