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waller Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2006 Posts: 332
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:13 am Post subject: This is the source of my power draw |
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Hi all,
I've been trying to figure out what is draining my battery when the car sits. After following all the instructions previously given, I've found the source of the issue but I don't know what to do now
It's the short wire coming off the + positive battery lead and going into the "Short Stop". (I'm not sure what that is). Can I just remove the Short Stop and connect the 3 connections into the positive battery lead?
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waller Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2006 Posts: 332
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:55 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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Further investigation: it’s specifically the red/white going to the back of the car.
Sorry if I’m all over the place, still learning! |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31378 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:26 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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That looks like an aftermarket/generic circuit breaker that someone added. What to its wires go to? The drain could be from the added breaker itself or from what component the wires go to. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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waller Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2006 Posts: 332
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:48 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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Cusser wrote: |
That looks like an aftermarket/generic circuit breaker that someone added. What to its wires go to? The drain could be from the added breaker itself or from what component the wires go to. |
I'm wondering if it's the breaker itself. Any idea why someone would add it?
EDIT: sorry I missed your question:
Cusser wrote: |
What to its wires go to |
-One is a red/white going towards the engine
-One is a red that is running to the front of the car via the passenger side tunnel |
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68IHscout Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2010 Posts: 3122 Location: santa ana ca
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:24 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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Window defrost maybe ,those wires are awful thick iirc though , chase them down see where they lead as Cusser suggested |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1163 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:59 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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Hard to tell, but my guess is a start relay _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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vamram Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012 Posts: 7304 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:28 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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I have a 40 amp breaker similar to that on my '74 and have been wondering if that might be the source of a similar parasitic battery drain on this Bug to what you're seeing on yours. How did you identify it as being the source of the drain? _________________ Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
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waller Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2006 Posts: 332
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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vamram wrote: |
I have a 40 amp breaker similar to that on my '74 and have been wondering if that might be the source of a similar parasitic battery drain on this Bug to what you're seeing on yours. How did you identify it as being the source of the drain? |
I mean, I’m clearly no pro but there was no drain on any fuses, so I took off the negative battery cable and used a multimeter on the cable and negative battery post while I removed (one by one) the + side cables. When I removed this one it dropped significantly.
I’m going to try and eliminate it from the equation and see if that helps me. Will report back. |
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vamram Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012 Posts: 7304 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 11:50 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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waller wrote: |
vamram wrote: |
I have a 40 amp breaker similar to that on my '74 and have been wondering if that might be the source of a similar parasitic battery drain on this Bug to what you're seeing on yours. How did you identify it as being the source of the drain? |
I mean, I’m clearly no pro but there was no drain on any fuses, so I took off the negative battery cable and used a multimeter on the cable and negative battery post while I removed (one by one) the + side cables. When I removed this one it dropped significantly.
I’m going to try and eliminate it from the equation and see if that helps me. Will report back. |
Very interesting. I just did a fuse by fuse test and could not come up with a noticeable draw on any of the circuits. Btcha the same thing is happening in my case. _________________ Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
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Pez Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2003 Posts: 583 Location: Texarkana
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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Like Cusser said, need to know where all the wires go. The solid red wire looks aftermarket, going to guess that the whole mess was for a sound system. Your best bet is to find the terminus of each wire and if it is not a factory item (reference your wiring diagram!) then it should be removed. If all thats left is the Red/White wire then connect to back to its correct location (likely postive terminal on battery, but again, what does your wiring diagram show you?)
EDIT: Looked back at your previous topics and being a car with A/C, need to verify that big red wire is not supply for a under dash HVAC system. _________________ Always chasing Squirrel's. |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15985 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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waller wrote: |
Cusser wrote: |
What to its wires go to |
-One is a red/white going towards the engine
-One is a red that is running to the front of the car via the passenger side tunnel |
You will need to crawl under the car and trace the red/white wire to see where it terminates. If you find it has rubbed thru the insulation somewhere along the way you have found your drain.
You didn't mention the model year of your Beetle, but most did not have a wire running from the battery post to the engine/transmission (other than the battery positive cable which runs to the starter solenoid to power the starter motor). Any there was no circuit breaker anywhere from the factory. This means this wire was added by a PO. You need to see where they ran the wire.
You were not clear, but I'm guessing the red wire in a black sleeve with yellow ring terminals on the end connects between the circuit breaker and the battery positive terminal? Since the red/white wire is connected to the same stud on the circuit breaker it means it is NOT protected by the circuit breaker. So what ever is powered by the wire was meant to be a direct battery connection w/o a fuse/circuit breaker. It could mean it draws a lot of current.
One thing that does come to mind... on Dune Buggies it is not uncommon to wire the alternator B+ output directly to the battery cable on the starter or the battery terminal. Check if this red/white wire runs to the alternator B+? An easy way to check would be to reconnect the red/white wire to the circuit breaker and test for the current draw at the negative terminal. Remove the B+ wire at the alternator and see if there is a change in the current draw. Also check that while the B+ is connected, is there an measurable voltage coming out the D+ terminal? There are diodes inside the alternator that prevent current from flowing in on the B+ and out the D+. When the diodes fail current may flow and it drains the battery. This is usually seen as the GEN lamp being ON while the ignition switch is OFF. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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waller Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2006 Posts: 332
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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[quote="Pez"]Your best bet is to find the terminus of each wire and if it is not a factory item (reference your wiring diagram!) then it should be removed. If all thats left is the Red/White wire then connect to back to its correct location (likely postive terminal on battery, but again, what does your wiring diagram show you?) [\quote]
I think this is where I need to start, with a wiring diagram.
A few other notes:
-car is a 78 Super vert
-car had factory installed AC but was disabled years ago
- this car has a stereo system that was pretty elaborate. The box was included and says “installed 2010” and has an amp with endless wiring on the drivers side under the rear seat. I seem to think this is the culprit.
Note if I disconnect the red/white and try to start the car, there is no power. The problem is that the red/white is too short to reach the positive battery post!
I have some wiring gremlins! 😀 |
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Pez Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2003 Posts: 583 Location: Texarkana
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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[quote="waller"]
Pez wrote: |
Your best bet is to find the terminus of each wire and if it is not a factory item (reference your wiring diagram!) then it should be removed. If all thats left is the Red/White wire then connect to back to its correct location (likely postive terminal on battery, but again, what does your wiring diagram show you?) [\quote]
I think this is where I need to start, with a wiring diagram.
A few other notes:
-car is a 78 Super vert
-car had factory installed AC but was disabled years ago
- this car has a stereo system that was pretty elaborate. The box was included and says “installed 2010” and has an amp with endless wiring on the drivers side under the rear seat. I seem to think this is the culprit.
Note if I disconnect the red/white and try to start the car, there is no power. The problem is that the red/white is too short to reach the positive battery post!
I have some wiring gremlins! 😀 |
Yes you do! I'm always more inclined to remove any aftermarket wiring and return a car back to a clean slate. Allows me to know exactly what I'm working with.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/76-79113wiring.jpg
Here is the wiring diagram for your car, take your time and follow the diagram. If you can't physically follow a wire use the multimeter you used to confirm the dram and check resistance at each assumed end to confirm. Just do it for fun, learn your car. _________________ Always chasing Squirrel's. |
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waller Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2006 Posts: 332
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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Pez wrote: |
I'm always more inclined to remove any aftermarket wiring and return a car back to a clean slate. Allows me to know exactly what I'm working with. |
Totally agree with you. I'm just not great with electrical so this takes me a little longer, but you folks have been great.
It looks like my red/white and solid red are right, but what's the yellow/red?
Part of me wants to be done with this, part of me likes the mystery |
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Pez Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2003 Posts: 583 Location: Texarkana
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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waller wrote: |
Pez wrote: |
I'm always more inclined to remove any aftermarket wiring and return a car back to a clean slate. Allows me to know exactly what I'm working with. |
Totally agree with you. I'm just not great with electrical so this takes me a little longer, but you folks have been great.
It looks like my red/white and solid red are right, but what's the yellow/red?
Part of me wants to be done with this, part of me likes the mystery |
I see a Red/Yellow coming from item "A" which is your battery. This wire goes directly to a orange 7 and the Key says this is which pin it is at the T20 plug which is the diagnostic port on your firewall.
Your doing good and asking the right questions so don't give up, step away for a bit but treat it like a puzzle. You will knock this one out and the next one will be a cinch! _________________ Always chasing Squirrel's. |
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waller Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2006 Posts: 332
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 6:00 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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Pez wrote: |
this is which pin it is at the T20 plug which is the diagnostic port on your firewall. |
You may want to add this to the stupid question post, but where do I find this?
EDIT: I searched the forums for the T20 and found a post that reads "There is no real use for the plug any longer. If you're wiring from scratch, you're absolutely safe to delete any wiring going to the plug." |
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Pez Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2003 Posts: 583 Location: Texarkana
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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waller wrote: |
Pez wrote: |
this is which pin it is at the T20 plug which is the diagnostic port on your firewall. |
You may want to add this to the stupid question post, but where do I find this?
EDIT: I searched the forums for the T20 and found a post that reads "There is no real use for the plug any longer. If you're wiring from scratch, you're absolutely safe to delete any wiring going to the plug." |
I couldn't find anything by search T20 either but if you look 3/4 of the way to the right of the diagram it shows a picture of T20 and you can see it's what is commonly called the diagnostic plug on the firewall. I just searched that and up popped a fantastic thread here on the Samba.
Thread here for T20 diagnostic connector.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=720303
I can see where people wouldn't bother building this back into a handmade harness but a factory correct harness will come with connections for it. And yes we don't have the "computer" to connect to it but I've used it before to get off the side of the road (ignition switch issues, able to go direct to power using spade connectors I carry). _________________ Always chasing Squirrel's. |
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waller Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2006 Posts: 332
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:17 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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That’s an amazing post! I went back and I don’t have a plug in the engine compartment.
In the meantime, I’ve traced the solid red wire to the front of the car from the positive battery post. When I started to pull it a little, this fell out from behind the glove box, wtf! 😂
The red isn’t plugged into it at all. What is this?
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31378 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:22 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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waller wrote: |
That’s an amazing post! I went back and I don’t have a plug in the engine compartment.
In the meantime, I’ve traced the solid red wire to the front of the car from the positive battery post. When I started to pull it a little, this fell out from behind the glove box, wtf! 😂
The red isn’t plugged into it at all. What is this?
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That is an old VW air conditioning relay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-A-C-Clutch-Relay-ZAW...Swg3tasUEv _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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waller Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2006 Posts: 332
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: Re: This is the source of my power draw |
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Thanks Cusser. this car doesn’t have functioning AC, nor do I need it. So that red wire can go 👌.
There are a lot of wires leading to this relay, can they all then be traced back to the origin and disconnected/disposed? I can see one is bolted to the frame and another goes behind the steering column. |
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