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physast Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2005 Posts: 675 Location: DC
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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AFT level solved!
I think I interpreted 'cold' meaning engine off after a nights rest. I think cold actually means engine on and run through gears after a nights rest. So as MarkWard said I was "chasing my tail"
Instead I just filled to between the dots while hot and I am going to call it a day.
Thank you for all the help. Now I will clean the area around the trans linkage and see where the leak is coming from. _________________ 1967 L633 VW beetle (currently being restored...slowly)
1991 Orly Blue Vanaru 2.5L |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1944 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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In VW ATF measuring, "cold" means engine off and sitting overnight. 20 degrees C or 68 degrees F. Truly cold. The crosshatched bottom 2mm of the ATF dipstick is the "cold" ATF level marker.
It's still not a reliable measure, however, because of drainback issues. So many vans have had their ATF cooling systems changed, that measuring hot is the only way to get a reliable value.
The two round dots on the ATF dipstick are for hot measures. I always do my hot ATF measures/fills to the lower dot. On really hot, hard driving days, the ATF volume will expand to meet the upper dot.
kourt |
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brickster Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 512 Location: CO, USA
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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kourt wrote: |
In VW ATF measuring, "cold" means engine off and sitting overnight. 20 degrees C or 68 degrees F. Truly cold. The crosshatched bottom 2mm of the ATF dipstick is the "cold" ATF level marker.
It's still not a reliable measure, however, because of drainback issues. So many vans have had their ATF cooling systems changed, that measuring hot is the only way to get a reliable value.
The two round dots on the ATF dipstick are for hot measures. I always do my hot ATF measures/fills to the lower dot. On really hot, hard driving days, the ATF volume will expand to meet the upper dot.
kourt |
Good information, thanks! And the amount of fluid to get you from lower to upper hole is pretty small, correct? |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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kourt wrote: |
In VW ATF measuring, "cold" means engine off and sitting overnight. 20 degrees C or 68 degrees F. Truly cold. The crosshatched bottom 2mm of the ATF dipstick is the "cold" ATF level marker.t |
I don't think I have ever seen or heard this anywhere before, do you have a source. It certainly contradicts the idea of starting the engine and running the transmission through the gears before checking the level.
Also as far as I can tell it is 100% okay according to VW for the level to be at the upper mark when the ATF temperature is 60°C. From the 1983 Owner's Manual:
"The ATF should be checked when it is warm, with the engine idling, the selector lever in Neutral and the parking brake applied." |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1944 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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Wildthings wrote: |
I don't think I have ever seen or heard this anywhere before, do you have a source. It certainly contradicts the idea of starting the engine and running the transmission through the gears before checking the level. |
Howdy Wildthings!
My post wasn't meant to validate any measuring of ATF while the engine is cold--doing that is truly "chasing your tail" as Mark says. I think we all agree one should always measure ATF after driving at least six miles, parking level, leaving the engine running, etc.
See the Bentley illustration below to note the crosshatching on the bottom of the newer Vanagon dipsticks. Perhaps the 1983 models do not have that feature. That hatching is there for one purpose: to measure ATF cold (20C/68F). When doing a complete transaxle reinstall, where ATF has been purged and you're refilling from empty, this measuring point is very useful.
Wildthings wrote: |
Also as far as I can tell it is 100% okay according to VW for the level to be at the upper mark when the ATF temperature is 60°C. |
I'm sure it is, but the Bentley also has something to say about that:
"--check ATF level and top up to lower mark if necessary"
and this:
"warm up to operating temperature and fill to between marks"
Bentley never instructs to fill to the upper mark. You might notice that the difference between Low and High on the newer dipsticks is a smaller amount than on the old dipsticks (0.23L vs 0.33L), indicating there is less margin for error. In my experience, filling to the upper mark leaves no margin for additional ATF expansion when the transaxle is really hot--that's all I meant by my comment.
kourt
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brickster Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 512 Location: CO, USA
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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I can confirm that the dipstick on my 1984 does not have the crosshatching.
I noticed that my dipstick label says to check level in neutral (as does the photo above!) yet Bentley says check in park. Would there be a big difference between them?
If I drain the transmission, approximately how much fluid would get me near the bottom hole? |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17124 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 5:21 am Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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Park, neutral, in gear, shouldn’t make a difference. I believe it’s more of a safety concern. You could do a comparison test and report your findings. Make sure your hand brake works if your alone. _________________ ☮️ |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32598 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17124 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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Loosening the 6mm bolt at the bellhousing that connects the tube support makes it easier to not cross thread the tube into the pan. _________________ ☮️ |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32598 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17124 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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djkeev wrote: |
MarkWard wrote: |
Loosening the 6mm bolt at the bellhousing that connects the tube support makes it easier to not cross thread the tube into the pan. |
10mm head, It is so easy to reach, I just take it out completely until the tube is well on its way to finger tight.
Dave |
I've been banned from using references to a 10mm wrench when discussing repairs. _________________ ☮️ |
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brickster Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 512 Location: CO, USA
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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Awesome information, thanks! I will compare N & P and report back. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17124 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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I’ll add this bit of trivia. I recently installed a rebuilt automatic with a GW finned external cooler. It took a total of 6 qts for a completely empty auto. I believe the amount listed in the manual is for a service, not a rebuild with new torque converter. _________________ ☮️ |
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brickster Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 512 Location: CO, USA
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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MarkWard wrote: |
I’ll add this bit of trivia. I recently installed a rebuilt automatic with a GW finned external cooler. It took a total of 6 qts for a completely empty auto. I believe the amount listed in the manual is for a service, not a rebuild with new torque converter. |
I will actually be installing the same cooler when I change the fluid. Instructions say that it adds approximately 1.5 pints to the system.
https://www.gowesty.com/files/GVW-AT-COOLER-REV-50.pdf |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17124 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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brickster wrote: |
MarkWard wrote: |
I’ll add this bit of trivia. I recently installed a rebuilt automatic with a GW finned external cooler. It took a total of 6 qts for a completely empty auto. I believe the amount listed in the manual is for a service, not a rebuild with new torque converter. |
I will actually be installing the same cooler when I change the fluid. Instructions say that it adds approximately 1.5 pints to the system.
https://www.gowesty.com/files/GVW-AT-COOLER-REV-50.pdf |
You will have fluid remaining if you are just dropping the pan and adding a cooler. I would start with 3 qts and add from there. The GW thermostat bypasses ATF till it opens, so you will likely get the level correct, go out and drive it and it will be low again. Just don't overfill. I was surprised the factory manual did not have a dry fill amount listed. _________________ ☮️ |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22648 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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MarkWard wrote: |
djkeev wrote: |
MarkWard wrote: |
Loosening the 6mm bolt at the bellhousing that connects the tube support makes it easier to not cross thread the tube into the pan. |
10mm head, It is so easy to reach, I just take it out completely until the tube is well on its way to finger tight.
Dave |
I've been banned from using references to a 10mm wrench when discussing repairs. |
And yet you just can’t stop....
_________________ .ssS! |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17124 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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Abscate wrote: |
MarkWard wrote: |
djkeev wrote: |
MarkWard wrote: |
Loosening the 6mm bolt at the bellhousing that connects the tube support makes it easier to not cross thread the tube into the pan. |
10mm head, It is so easy to reach, I just take it out completely until the tube is well on its way to finger tight.
Dave |
I've been banned from using references to a 10mm wrench when discussing repairs. |
And yet you just can’t stop....
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I was trolling. _________________ ☮️ |
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brickster Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 512 Location: CO, USA
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Auto Trans leak |
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brickster wrote: |
Awesome information, thanks! I will compare N & P and report back. |
And my results were….<drum roll>…no difference!
I did discover that I’m overfilled (van is new to me) slightly. Planning on changing fluid soon.
Would someone please measure their later dipstick cold line distance from the end? I’d like to mark mine (assuming they’re the same length?). |
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