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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3460
Location: Paradise, Ca
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 Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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Happy Birthday!!!
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| Happy Birthday!!! |
Thanks!  |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| Happy Birthday!!! |
.................................................................i like your car a lot .you can tell a vw guy that puts all his money into a bad ass motor. is that a stock vw shifter your using ? from reading your tack. looks like your shifting at 6,500 rpm may 7,000 great job . if i drove like you do on the streets in my town i would be in jail lol lol have fun spencerfvee |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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| ivkings4 wrote: |
| spencerfvee wrote: |
| ivkings4 wrote: |
More power is more heat no matter how you look at it. I have 200 miles with E85 in my engine. 20 degree cooler oil temps and 40 cooler degree cht temps. 330 on freeway to 280 and that’s with autocraft 910 heads. Better poling heads and a real shroud you could make it live for sure.
Once dialed in I will be going to a 88 x 105. |
..........................................................so we must run E85 gas .to keep the heat down . if we build a 90x101 motor .are you using carbs ? if so what did you do to the carbs so you can run E85 gas ? thanks spencerfvee |
You don't, I have 4000 miles on a 86 x 101.4 10.7 to 1 51.5 IDa's street engine with 910 Autocraft heads. Ran 91 octane with torco boost for the first 4k.
Now I have 200 miles on the E85 tune. Nothing done inside the carbs besides what Geers did to them when going to 52's. 300 needles, larger bowels.
I did go to 80 pump jets.
The car has to be set up for it. no rubber lines, I have -8 stainless from the pump back to regulator and -6 teflon every where else. pump and reg are E85 friendly.
35% larger main and Idle. I think it will make it thru the 1/8 without running out of fuel in the carbs. 1/4 is another question. I raced my wife messing around to 5500 in 4th, thats about 130 with a .82 4th and a 413 r/p with a 26" tall tire. It ran out of fuel so I let off.
I could up the fuel pressure from 2.8 to 3.5 and it would help. still in the testing stages.... I can always run race gas at the track and E85 on the street. |
.................................................................................................thanks for the info on your motor . great info . good luck setting up your motor . spencerfvee |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3460
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
| Happy Birthday!!! |
.................................................................i like your car a lot .you can tell a vw guy that puts all his money into a bad ass motor. is that a stock vw shifter your using ? from reading your tack. looks like your shifting at 6,500 rpm may 7,000 great job . if i drove like you do on the streets in my town i would be in jail lol lol have fun spencerfvee |
The shifter in the video is a old bugpack that is toast. I actually just replaced it last weekend as i rebuilt a crusty rusty Hurst shifter that was seized up, put one of Bruce T's reinforcement plate on it, and it matches the hoopty patina well. I forgot how well those old Hursts shift.
Thanks for the kind words, if you like mine, you will love FL59S bug alot more, he is using a old school style proven combo that will be pretty serious. If he uses sticky drag radials, i bet he gets into the 11's. I cant wait to see it and hear it 
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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vwinnovator
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1555
Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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[quote="spencerfvee"]
| vwinnovator wrote: |
| spencerfvee wrote: |
| hi very cool case. but if one would build a that case with 101 cyls . with a 90 mm crank . would it run real hot . on a street motor ? .what would you use to cool a motor that big and have it live on the street .and would that. be worth the money one would spend to build a motor like that ?would a motor like that cost over $25,000.00. to build with the best parts money can buy or less. turn key ? spencerfvee |
interesting...
what's your correlation to the stoke/size of a motor to the heat it would generate?
I don't think a 90mm crank would make moe heat than a 69mm
but depending on cylinders / fins, i could see 101's hotter than 85's...[/quote .........................................................................................................................the biggest motor i was a part of building . was a 90mm x94mm it was a off the road buggy motor . from what i was told by the owner of the buggy it did run hotter . he ran cam 2 racing gas. and that helped to keep the heat down . he only used it on week ends .when my best racing friend was a live we built a 88mmx94mm for for are dragster we used a scat case
and scat rods it ran good at the track .but did get very hot after each run at the drag strip spencerfvee |
In both those cases, I would attribute the "heat" to higher compression engines...not the size of the crank...
as well as lack of cooling tin on a drag engine...
apples to apples..
How much varience would you think a 1600cc vs. a 1914cc, with identical cams, identical CR, and proportional valves/porting, would differ in running temperatures?
how about a 69mm X 85.5mm vs. a 90mm X 85.5mm, with identical heads, cam, CR?
would be an interesting study.. |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 4:05 am Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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[quote="vwinnovator"]
| spencerfvee wrote: |
| vwinnovator wrote: |
| spencerfvee wrote: |
| hi very cool case. but if one would build a that case with 101 cyls . with a 90 mm crank . would it run real hot . on a street motor ? .what would you use to cool a motor that big and have it live on the street .and would that. be worth the money one would spend to build a motor like that ?would a motor like that cost over $25,000.00. to build with the best parts money can buy or less. turn key ? spencerfvee |
interesting...
what's your correlation to the stoke/size of a motor to the heat it would generate?
I don't think a 90mm crank would make moe heat than a 69mm
but depending on cylinders / fins, i could see 101's hotter than 85's...[/quote .........................................................................................................................the biggest motor i was a part of building . was a 90mm x94mm it was a off the road buggy motor . from what i was told by the owner of the buggy it did run hotter . he ran cam 2 racing gas. and that helped to keep the heat down . he only used it on week ends .when my best racing friend was a live we built a 88mmx94mm for for are dragster we used a scat case
and scat rods it ran good at the track .but did get very hot after each run at the drag strip spencerfvee |
In both those cases, I would attribute the "heat" to higher compression engines...not the size of the crank...
as well as lack of cooling tin on a drag engine...
apples to apples..
How much varience would you think a 1600cc vs. a 1914cc, with identical cams, identical CR, and proportional valves/porting, would differ in running temperatures?
how about a 69mm X 85.5mm vs. a 90mm X 85.5mm, with identical heads, cam, CR?
would be an interesting study.. |
.................................................................................................................my thinking is most guys build. a lets say a 2180 motor then they put a stock vw fan housing on that motor thats made to cool a 1600cc motor . when vw made the typ 4 motor they went with a bigger fan housing to cool the motor .vw made a much bigger fan housing and fan . than a typ 3 pan cake motors fan housing and fan . .when the typ4 motor came out. my years of building vw motors. i have been waiting for some one to make a bigger fan and bigger fan houseing for a bug .i am still waiting lol spencerfvee |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
| .................................................................................................................my thinking is most guys build. a lets say a 2180 motor then they put a stock vw fan housing on that motor thats made to cool a 1600cc motor . when vw made the typ 4 motor they went with a bigger fan housing to cool the motor .vw made a much bigger fan housing and fan . than a typ 3 pan cake motors fan housing and fan . .when the typ4 motor came out. my years of building vw motors. i have been waiting for some one to make a bigger fan and bigger fan houseing for a bug .i am still waiting lol spencerfvee |
A Type I bored out to a 2180, or a 2276, or a 2332 does not need a bigger fan. You are not using any larger heads then a stock 1600. The outside of the head has the same surface area as a stock 1600 head. Only the inside of the head is cut bigger. The Type IV went to a larger cooling fan because the heads are bigger and have more surface area to cool.
Bigger engines run hotter because people increase the compression ratio and don't run enough octane to support the higher CR. I've got into some nasty fights from saying this but anything higher then 9.5 CR need more then 91 octane fuel. 10.0-11.0 CR engines need 93-95 octane fuel.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:20 am Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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| hmm I only run 93 octane in everything I own...Im not sure hat somebody wold run 87 execpt for there cheep ass dont mind low power slug bug...etc.10.4 works just fine for me. |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| spencerfvee wrote: |
| .................................................................................................................my thinking is most guys build. a lets say a 2180 motor then they put a stock vw fan housing on that motor thats made to cool a 1600cc motor . when vw made the typ 4 motor they went with a bigger fan housing to cool the motor .vw made a much bigger fan housing and fan . than a typ 3 pan cake motors fan housing and fan . .when the typ4 motor came out. my years of building vw motors. i have been waiting for some one to make a bigger fan and bigger fan houseing for a bug .i am still waiting lol spencerfvee |
A Type I bored out to a 2180, or a 2276, or a 2332 does not need a bigger fan. You are not using any larger heads then a stock 1600. The outside of the head has the same surface area as a stock 1600 head. Only the inside of the head is cut bigger. The Type IV went to a larger cooling fan because the heads are bigger and have more surface area to cool.
Bigger engines run hotter because people increase the compression ratio and don't run enough octane to support the higher CR. I've got into some nasty fights from saying this but anything higher then 9.5 CR need more then 91 octane fuel. 10.0-11.0 CR engines need 93-95 octane fuel. |
............................................................................................................... to me it seems funny that VW . over the years. that every time vw went up on motor size like 36hp to 1200cc .1200cc to 1300 cc then to 1500cc to 1600cc motors. the fans got bigger the oil coolers got bigger the oil pumps got bigger. i wonder if vw would have made a 2180cc motor.for a beetle .what would they have done . if it was air cooled. i would be willing to bet that it would have a bigger fan housing with a bigger fan. a bigger oil cooler . . i see a lot of motors that dont have the air flaps dont use a thermostats dont run all the sheet metal parts that help cool the motor . guys are still running the thin wall 92 and thin wall 88s that run hot . just my take on cooling a air cooled motor dave . just my two cents spencerfvee |
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jeff68
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Sarasota, Florida
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:13 am Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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Dave has a good point that not many consider. There is only a certain amount of surface (finned areas on the heads and barrels) area available to dissipate the heat and be cooled by the air blown across these fins by the fan. The amount of surface area to dissipate the heat is the limiting factor. Unless a substancial amount of cooing area is added (bigger / more fins) a bigger fan will do nothing except rob power to turn it. The common solution is to add an external oil cooler this helps but the heads are cooled primarily air.
The good thing is VW was conservative with the cooling system and designed in a safety factor (more cooling capacity than a stock engine requires) so we can get away with (up to a point) running more displacement and depending on the engine set up (more valve overlap) and increase the compression. Of course the engine has to be tuned properly, proper octane fuel, right combination of parts, well maintained ect).
Just my $0.02 |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:30 am Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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| jeff68 wrote: |
Dave has a good point that not many consider. There is only a certain amount of surface (finned areas on the heads and barrels) area available to dissipate the heat and be cooled by the air blown across these fins by the fan. The amount of surface area to dissipate the heat is the limiting factor. Unless a substancial amount of cooing area is added (bigger / more fins) a bigger fan will do nothing except rob power to turn it. The common solution is to add an external oil cooler this helps but the heads are cooled primarily air.
The good thing is VW was conservative with the cooling system and designed in a safety factor (more cooling capacity than a stock engine requires) so we can get away with (up to a point) running more displacement and depending on the engine set up (more valve overlap) and increase the compression. Of course the engine has to be tuned properly, proper octane fuel, right combination of parts, well maintained ect)................................................................point taken some thing to think about. may be thats why vw went to water cooled motor on the flat 4 bus motor . bigger motor better cooling . its just some thing to talk about . lol my two cents spencerfvee
Just my $0.02 |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 10:13 am Post subject: Re: my 2332 which engine case - White Rhino or TF-1? |
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no dave dosent have a good point.  some heads have houmoungus holes some dont...some tins fit tight some dont...some tins leek more than others, some have all the tin some dont. I wood love a 40 mm wide fan for mine. or a reverse fined fan. so I could put then back to back..and suck from both sides..  no not all heads have the same amount of finnage. some have air above the ex port some dont. so no daves bright reply is squat &dead full of holes.but I dont mind dave running a 36 or 25 hp fan to save hp for his drag motors. |
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