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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Destructive harmonic resonance in AAZ crankshaft |
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valvecovergasket wrote: |
and as fun bit of trivia the factory mk2 ecodiesel was a 1.6 with a turbo slapped on, NA pump and all... |
That's not quite accurate. It is true that the ECOdiesel (1V engine code) did not have the boost fuel enrichment on the injection pump, but it had the piston cooling oil jets, and used the TD spec 155 bar injectors. The injection pump was also *detuned* from a normal non-turbo pump and was fitted with an 8mm plunger rather than the typical 9mm plunger fitted to all of the other 1.6 engines, turbo and non-turbo alike. |
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westyventures Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2004 Posts: 2306 Location: Oregon Outback
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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drewbie49 wrote: |
Thanks for the input.
Guess I am real confused now.
The first engine was an overland product installed at NorthWesty in Renton and the second was a long block from Quality German in Victorville Installed at a shop in Tacoma.
The only parts common to both builds were the pump, injectors and turbo which was installed shortly prior to the first failure.
Maybe three times is a charm. We will see. it’s been a trip. |
Overland: new, reman, used?
QG: used longblock I assume?
Both questionable, perhaps the answer is you were unlucky enough to get two duds. You really need to have gauges to monitor boost, EGT etc on these in a van to really know what's going on. And maybe try another installed who knows VW diesels extremely well. |
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akyrie Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2010 Posts: 519 Location: Driftless, Wisco
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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I am sorry to hear your troubles. I would be suspect of any carry over parts, especially since this is not a known problem.
Maybe it's time to get an engine that had an original American market? 1Z (AHU- late 98 jettas etc...)can be swapped in there with little modification. They can be run completely mechanical. Don't mess with the engine, buy one from a salvage yard if you can see it run. They are way cheaper than what you paid from either place you bought your previous blocks. These are known champs, should go 300k with decent fluid and belt changes.
I did this same thing, bought a car of craigslist for $700, and I took the long way of making it an etdi. Maybe shoulda, coulda done it all mechanical. I wanted to plug stuff into it, thats my personal crutch. Doesn't have to be yours. _________________ Although I got a funny message from the Porsche guys, it read, "what a mighty ship that you must sail"
....has anyone else received that?
82 AHU DK, 1950's Puch-black |
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valvecovergasket Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018 Posts: 1492 Location: pnw
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Destructive harmonic resonance in AAZ crankshaft |
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?Waldo? wrote: |
valvecovergasket wrote: |
and as fun bit of trivia the factory mk2 ecodiesel was a 1.6 with a turbo slapped on, NA pump and all... |
That's not quite accurate. It is true that the ECOdiesel (1V engine code) did not have the boost fuel enrichment on the injection pump, but it had the piston cooling oil jets, and used the TD spec 155 bar injectors. The injection pump was also *detuned* from a normal non-turbo pump and was fitted with an 8mm plunger rather than the typical 9mm plunger fitted to all of the other 1.6 engines, turbo and non-turbo alike. |
ah, figured there was more to the story!
either way they somehow avoided a death sentence! _________________ MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com
gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6360 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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Hello!
Was the second block a brand new AAZ, not rebuilt ? I saw last year he had one left, I almost bought it.
If both were used, maybe they were from accidented vehicles that took a frontal passenger hit and stressed the crank?
You are running a diesel bellhousing , right? No adapter ?
The harmonic breaking I cannot comment on, it makes sense when I read it but that's too much theory for me.
I've seen my share of improper set ups on diesels but never a snapped crank! _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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drewbie49 Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2015 Posts: 12 Location: Tacoma
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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So,
I got it built.
Seems to run really well.
I believe it was due to the incorrect injectors and improper pump settings. Seems the 1.6 injectors were the equipment in the engine when I purchased it several years back. When I took it in to do a small mod-new and upgraded turbo, new cam shaft and lifters and some other minor junk, I also had the injectors and pump sent out for the treatment.
To cut to the quick I had new 1.9 injectors installed and it seems to have remedied the issue. Someone saw the damaged crankshaft and said that -if I understood correctly-there was too much fuel being dumped into the system and this was the result-twice.
Any input would be appreciate in case I am not seeing something clearly. |
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11BC2 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2017 Posts: 495 Location: Cool, California
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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I’m trying to figure out how the pump and/or injectors could cause a crank to fail without giving any indication...poor engine performance, horrid noises, etc... before failure.
I have a 1984 Jetta, that left Germany with a 1.6l Turbodiesel engine.
Replaced that 1.6 with a used NA 1.9 AAZ from Quality German.
Pulled the head off, cleaned out the intake ports, applied new head gasket using ARP studs, and replaced the main and rod bearings, again using ARP studs/bolts.
I swapped all of the 1.6 diesel components...pump, lines, injectors...straight onto the AAZ. Made my own hybrid turbo using a compressor wheel and housing from a Volvo 240 turbo.
Put the car on the dyno, adjusted fuel to a light smoke on acceleration, and it makes 120whp/200wtq and gets mid 40mpg. Boost is ~11psi, iirc. |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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Nope, no way. Fitting 1.6 injectors on a 1.9 would not break the crankshaft. Period. Maybe having the timing set way too advanced would stress the crankshaft, but the engine would sound like absolute crap. If one or more of the injectors were peeing enough fuel to cause an issue like hydrolock, then the engine would sound like it had a rod knock AND rather than breaking the crankshaft, the rod would get bent. |
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drewbie49 Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2015 Posts: 12 Location: Tacoma
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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I go there only because those were the only two components common to both engine failures.
On another note;
The throttle seems to be a bit spongy and binds a little at times. Nothing alarming but I know it can be better.
Tried to find a routing diagram to see if there is a bracket or something missing but unable t do so and since it is the holiday weekend no one is open to talk to or look at it.
Any links to a good clear routing of the cable, particularly at the firewall would be a great help.
Thanks for the input and happy 2021. |
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11BC2 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2017 Posts: 495 Location: Cool, California
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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I’m trying to figure out how the pump and/or injectors could cause a crank to fail without giving any indication...poor engine performance, horrid noises, etc... before failure.
I have a 1984 Jetta, that left Germany with a 1.6l Turbodiesel engine.
Replaced that 1.6 with a used NA 1.9 AAZ from Quality German.
Pulled the head off, cleaned out the intake ports, applied new head gasket using ARP studs, and replaced the main and rod bearings, again using ARP studs/bolts.
I swapped all of the 1.6 diesel components...pump, lines, injectors...straight onto the AAZ. Made my own hybrid turbo using a compressor wheel and housing from a Volvo 240 turbo.
Put the car on the dyno, adjusted fuel to a light smoke on acceleration, and it makes 120whp/200wtq and gets mid 40mpg. Boost is ~11psi, iirc. |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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11BC2 wrote: |
I’m trying to figure out how the pump and/or injectors could cause a crank to fail without giving any indication...poor engine performance, horrid noises, etc... before failure. |
They couldn't. Any scenario where the pump or injectors could cause the crank to break would have the engine running like crap and sounding awful well in advance of damage.
There are LOTS of people who have and do run AAZ or 1Y engines with 1.6 pump and injectors without any issues. |
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valvecovergasket Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018 Posts: 1492 Location: pnw
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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not to mention, the rods would be toast long before the crank would. _________________ MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com
gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread |
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drewbie49 Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2015 Posts: 12 Location: Tacoma
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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And it gets better.
Got the engine balanced and what not. New rods, pistons and crankshaft. New harmonic balancer and injectors. That seem to do the trick. Ran it on the flats for a bit and then crept over the pass a couple of times and things were running well. On my last trip over the pass and not far from home, the main bearings blew a hole in block you could drive thru.
Longer story short, I found a gentleman on the recomendation of a well respected shop in Kent Wa to put together an AHU.
During his assessment of the blown engine, he found that the dip stick was to long and said that there was never enough oil in the engine. This seems wierd as no one who changed the oil ever indicated any concern about the amount of oil.
So three engines and a ton of heartache later...
Any thoughts on this?
I am at a complete loss and am still hopeful we can resolve this with a different engine although I will always suspect the devil made his/her home in my van and it is destined to make my life a living hell as long as I insist on owning a Vanagon.
most likely will go up for sale regardless of how well it performs with the new engine.
Yes, I am a sucker. |
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Gnarlodious Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2013 Posts: 2323 Location: Adobe Jungle USA
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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I just don’t know how that could happen. Damned sloppy mechanics is what it is. Terrible.
When I put in my AAZ I was very concerned about the oil level since there was no good solution to a dipstick. My solution was twofold to prevent low oil level and/or pressure. First, an Auber 1813 digital gauge on the dash with programmable low pressure alarm. Second, I custom made a dipstick coming out the license plate cover by using the spring steel circumference ring scavenged from a windshield sunshade. Since I had no clue where low level was, I used the Auber readout to determine the level at which the pump sucked air. With the AAZ when I turn a corner the oil sloshes to one side and that is when I can see the pressure drop. That level is the absolute lowest the engine should ever see. I set the dipstick mark slightly higher than that level. No trouble ever.
My condolences but “protect your investment” is the byword here. Spend a little money and do the little bit of work to spare yourself the heartache. _________________ Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit |
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drewbie49 Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2015 Posts: 12 Location: Tacoma
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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Thank you for your reply and information. Should I decide to keep this project, I will certainly go with something like the instrument you are using.
Unfortunately, I am having trouble finding mechanics that are competent and can communicate and are understanding of my situation and will not get wound up if I get concerned when the months a passing by with no van.. Seems that I have had a couple high dollar techs cause me some high dollar grief. Not sure I want to remain in this toxic realm much longer. And yes it could be me.
Do not mean to unload just had some really high expectations that have crashed and burned for over two years now.
Coming here does give me some hope that I will one day soon either have a reliable Westy, or have it running long enough so I can sell it and feel good that no one is getting screwed.
We will see.
Thanks for the input and I will post when I get it complete. Hopefully sooner than later.
Cheers |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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I don't see how low oil level could break the first two crankshafts. It would toss a rod first.
Low oil level could certainly cause a tossed rod, but your oil light should have given you some warning. Is your oil light working? Does it light up each time you turn the key to ON before you turn to start? Did it light up when driving? |
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valvecovergasket Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018 Posts: 1492 Location: pnw
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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?Waldo? wrote: |
I don't see how low oil level could break the first two crankshafts. It would toss a rod first.
Low oil level could certainly cause a tossed rod, but your oil light should have given you some warning. Is your oil light working? Does it light up each time you turn the key to ON before you turn to start? Did it light up when driving? |
All of this
Something still doesn't add up here _________________ MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com
gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16883 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:35 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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drewbie49 wrote: |
Do not mean to unload just had some really high expectations that have crashed and burned for over two years now.
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yikes
we've all been there. personally, i feel diesel ownership is a false economy on anything made past about 1992. i have since flushed anything and everything i knew about vw diesels when i sold my last jetta
the only thing i could possibly suggest is keep it as close to stock as possible in terms of the swap.... using a engine from a 98? run all the management and do the upgrades (as in fixing known issues, NOT performance upgrades) and keep it as simple as possible.
or swap to a gasser? dunno. i know the feeling....felling like you've been defeated.
you could possibly find another shop (which could be a chore, and require shipping) or just call it quits. you really have to ask yourself is it worth the 40k (or more) you've shoveled into this or is it time to go sprinter?
sucks when you have a bad experience like this.... really sours you. it's bad enough to have a failure, but die$el failures are usually 2.5 times more expensive.
i'd sit down with the family and do some soul searching. seems that this has been a huge letdown and a money pit. sometimes you just need to know when to say "when" _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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Quote: |
On my last trip over the pass and not far from home, the main bearings blew a hole in block you could drive thru. |
This is likely not an accurate description. It's more likely a connecting rod detached and went through the side of the block, not a main bearing failure.
Connecting rods can fail for a number of reasons. One of those would be from running too low on oil. Connecting rod bearing starves for oil, starts to spin, overheat, and off it comes.
You will need to get the method for checking oil level problem sorted out. _________________ ☮️ |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Diesel AAZ injectors and pump (+ broken crankshaft)? |
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I don't think I've ever heard of a broken crank on an inline VW, ever. Is this engine assembly still in the van? I'm about 30 miles south of you, and would be willing to swing by and take a look. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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