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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51128
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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 Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: 72 oil bath filter with 73 PDSIT Solex Possible? |
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The rotor should move ~ 20 degrees with mild pressure and stop, it should also spring back to where you started by itself, if you can pull up and twist fairly hard and it doesn't move more than that it must be in the slot, if it rotates as much as you twist it's not, sounds like you got it in right.
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Zeta
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2008
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: 72 oil bath filter with 73 PDSIT Solex Possible? |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
Good work!, nothing beats a simple fix, and learning something in the process (without breaking stuff) is a nice bonus. 
Here's a dirty cut and paste from another topic that deals with the timing stuff, hopefully some of it makes sense to you:
| busdaddy wrote: |
Stickers and engine codes only count if all the parts are 100% original, your Chinese distributor speaks a different language, read the quote below (disregard the type 1 stuff):
| busdaddy wrote: |
All that book spec stuff only works if all the parts are matched from the factory and brand new, after 40+ years springs lose thier mojo and diapragms harden, do it this way:
| busdaddy wrote: |
Here's the sermon 
First you need to determine exactly where TDC is on your pulley and then set the timing at speed like this: Here's my timing for noobs rundown (keep in mind this assumes you have a degree wheel, timing scale or dial advance timing light and know where TDC really is, if you don't understand the marks on your type 1 pulley read this: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=251672&highlight=stock+pulley+marks ). Or if type 4 see this: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html
If you only have one hose attached to your distributor pull it off, you don't need to cap it (no need on single hose systems), if you have 2 pull them both off but plug the one that was connected to the nipple facing the distributor (retard {not you, that's what the hose does}). Now connect the timing light to the battery and the #1 plug wire according to the timing light instructions (and set it to zero if it's the type with adjustments). Now start the engine and shoot the timing light at the scale and pulley (hold the light in your right hand), see the mark on the pulley?, good. Now using your left hand slowly open the throttle on the side of the carb or throttle body (move it the same way the cable pulls it) and watch the timing mark VS: the scale, the mark on the pulley should start to move to the left, open the throttle a little more and continue until the mark no longer moves to the left any more (yes it's loud, isn't it?), give it a bit more throttle just to confirm the mark is staying put at wherever it stopped (hopefully 28 degrees) and then release the throttle. If it stopped at 28 move on to carb/FI adjustment, if it went past or didn't make it all the way loosen the distributor clamp a little and turn the distributor a few degrees one way or the other (you pick, if it's worse go the other way), repeat until you find the happy spot and don't forget to tighten the clamp when you are done (make sure the distributor is pushed down all the way into the case too). Avoid loose fitting clothing and long hair near spinning fans and belts too, no need for a trip to emergency. Now put the hose(s) back on, pack up the timing light and move on to carb or FI adjustment. |
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Well it took longer than I hoped but I went to the garage today and applied the procedure.
1. I started engine without any timing device connected to warm it up. During warmup something was off. She usually idles rough but something unusual was taking place. Checked engine bay. The spark plug wire 2 was disconnected at the distributor cap. Weird. Connected. Hopes increased.
2. Started engine. Ok, better than before and usual rough idle.
3. Let her idle for a while and stepped on the gas several times. Ok same as usual.
4. Went to the back and hooked inductive timing light
5. It was marking at 18 BTDC
6. Throttle pressed and light moved to 36-40 BTDC
7. Stopped engine, loosen the 10mm nut. Started engine.
8. With timing equipment connected, followed procedure and timed to 28 BTDC
BUT... I wasn’t sure how much to increase throttle for the higher/faster I went there was still some movement past 28 BTDC.
I cannot measure RPM so I guessed throttle and secured the distributor at 28 BTDC.
Afterwards it ran similarly as before ...
BUT... once I shut off engine and tried to start it again I was not able to. Checked wires and everything was connected. Didn’t have time to check further.
Could vacuum leaks affect timing?
Could my timing marks be wrong? I checked and found the timing notch on the front of the fan pulley and it was painted. I had not adjust any of those marks since last I drove the busseveral years ago.
What’s next?
Thanks
Z
_________________
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1974 Westy
1800 cc Type4 Engine
Single Weber Carb |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51128
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:41 am Post subject: Re: 72 oil bath filter with 73 PDSIT Solex Possible? |
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| Zeta wrote: |
| BUT... I wasn’t sure how much to increase throttle for the higher/faster I went there was still some movement past 28 BTDC. |
Keep increasing the RPM until the mark stops, it's super loud, but eventually it'll stop even though the revs are still climbing.
Not starting after retarding the timing says a few things, first of all confirm you are really looking at the right mark: https://ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html , if it's still putting up a fight it's tune up time, valve adjust, plugs, point gap and timing again. And a compression test as well.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Zeta
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2008
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: 72 oil bath filter with 73 PDSIT Solex Possible? |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| Zeta wrote: |
| BUT... I wasn’t sure how much to increase throttle for the higher/faster I went there was still some movement past 28 BTDC. |
Keep increasing the RPM until the mark stops, it's super loud, but eventually it'll stop even though the revs are still climbing.
Not starting after retarding the timing says a few things, first of all confirm you are really looking at the right mark: https://ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html , if it's still putting up a fight it's tune up time, valve adjust, plugs, point gap and timing again. And a compression test as well. |
Ok will do this weekend. Yes I read and reread both articles and the timing mark should be correct. I also got my hands on a tach meter so I will be able to tell rpm while checking the timing.
In anticipation to the weekend when I increase the RPM should I do this with a steady increase until the throttle is to the max? Analogous to “pedal to metal?”
I just found this link while reading on the subject.
https://youtu.be/R_2TOqdap84
Is this how I should rev the engine?
Thanks,
Z
_________________
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1974 Westy
1800 cc Type4 Engine
Single Weber Carb
Last edited by Zeta on Tue May 11, 2021 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51128
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: 72 oil bath filter with 73 PDSIT Solex Possible? |
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No, "pedal to the metal" while static in the driveway makes internal parts become external parts  , you don't need a tach, just watch the mark until it stops advancing, when you see it stop give it a little bit more throttle just to confirm that's all it's going to do.
you do have a timing scale on this engine, right?
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Zeta
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2008
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: 72 oil bath filter with 73 PDSIT Solex Possible? |
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Yes I do have a timing Scale...
That’s what I have read of “what not to do” while in neutral but wanted to confirm.
When I went through the procedure on Sunday the timing was 30-40 BTDC and at times it would disappear to the left of the scale. So I adjusted to 28 BTDC. Further one time when revving the engine a small amount of black smoke and a gentle detonation took place. That prompted me to let her idle and then shut off engine. A couple minutes later, did not start.
Thanks for the reassurance to prevent undue wear on engine.
Z
PS - this is the first time I do any of these procedures thus I account for a wide margin of technical errors and failed applicability of procedures by the technical staff, me.
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1974 Westy
1800 cc Type4 Engine
Single Weber Carb |
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Zeta
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2008
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 6:50 am Post subject: Re: 72 oil bath filter with 73 PDSIT Solex Possible? |
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Longer than anticipated, but a lot of research was needed.
Confession - I was a hooligan when I purchased the bus (21 yrs ago) as I bought it and drove it. Period. Did nothing. Read nothing. Assumed everything was OK and needed nothing. Foolishness. Glad I stopped driving it and parked in the garage. Best thing I could have done for it.
Today, older and calmer...I am learning before proceeding. I read on Samba, something like "the best mechanic for your vehicle is you." Powerful and encouraging.
Before jumping on timing decided to adjust the valves, which meant read before proceeding, and this is what I found after reading a whole lot on finding TDC because assuming you had the correct TDC and timing marks could mean engine wear / death. I am embarrassed for the following picture...
It was clear on the Bentley. Intake vs. Exhaust valves...come on man!
Then read about push rods hydraulic vs solid and still don't know which ones I have. I tried to use a pencil magnet as others suggested/done, but I couldn't tell. A pic in case someone could identify them.
I did confirm TDC by checking the rocking on rocker arms on 3 when #1 is at TDC, plus all the other steps. I read a lot about distributors and SVDA. Did confirm #1 mark on distributor matched #1 TDC w/ the rocking on #3 at same time. Rotor moving 90 degrees when pulley turned 180. So I feel really good about this portion.
With valves adjusted, replaced the cover and no, did not replace the gasket, because the engine is coming down soon and it will get all the loving then. With the HE in place it is difficult to bring the bail wire up again with a screwdriver, but with this tool life was so much better.
Checked oil, which is new as well as filter because she sat for 11 years before all of this. Thus I went ahead and replaced gas (drained, assessed), oil and filter. Oh BTW first time using a torque wrench for the delicate 9FTLBS warning regarding the oil screen bolt. Read before proceeding. But because this was so critical and I never had used a torque wrench I tested on the bench with bolt and two nuts.
SIDENOTE - you could say anything about Harbor Freight tools, but they give you something others more expensive tools cannot....and that is, the ability to continue moving forward with the project and the learning right when you need to. There is value in that.
With valves adjusted I made sure the points were between .40-.50mm. The gap at .43mm. Did not pull distributor, but checked in place. The rotor and cap were new last time I looked at things about 10 years ago. Shinny contact points, etc. Wires looked good as well and made solid connection. Checked conductivity on coil and works well. Cleaned tower.
Next, timing per suggestions. Having a single weber with an SVDA distributor proceeded to get that 28 BTDC at max advance. I colored the timing scale a bit, zero, 8 ATDC as well as 28 and 32 BTDC. Here is a video of it.... But it does goes beyond to 32 BTDC, so I think I need to tweak a bit more to stop it at 28.
https://youtu.be/tm7-xC1nkgg
I purchased a PT tach/dwell multimeter, but do not trust its readings. Will return as could not get the dwell feature to work and the RPM were all over the place. Yes, I know, cheap is not always good.
After this video, I worked on getting the carb to idle better and hesitate less. That was another 'read before proceeding' moment. Through it, learned why Wildthings and other discuss so much about getting some heating to the base of the carb. Felt the way it gets so cold down there when the vehicle is running and noticed condensation on intake manifolds. All new experiences. Do not have a video of the bus running after the adjustments to the carb. Better!
So I think for now it is good. Will start and let engine run daily up to warm up. No driving.
I am going back to check valve clearance and do the compression test which I forgot to do. Afterwards, will run the bus and advance to 28 BTDC as it sometimes goes to 32 BTDC.
Thanks for the push and encouragement, "...and I mean that most sincerely..."
PS - anyone could direct me to how best tell if my pushrods are hydraulic or solid? I thin mine are solid, because from what I read my take was that I wouldn't have the "play" on the rocker arms when the cylinder was at TDC, but that was my interpretation.
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1974 Westy
1800 cc Type4 Engine
Single Weber Carb |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51128
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 7:57 am Post subject: Re: 72 oil bath filter with 73 PDSIT Solex Possible? |
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The pushrods and rockers are solid style, without X-ray vision or more dismantling the lifters are still a mystery.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Zeta
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2008
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 4:30 am Post subject: Re: 72 oil bath filter with 73 PDSIT Solex Possible? |
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Went back to do compression test, per Ratwell’s procedure. Before warming up engine...
1. Checked valve clearances and to my surprise #1 intake valve was 100 % loose. It seems I had forgotten to tighten the nut!!! Thus, checked each valve for clearance and ensured each nut was tight.
2. Then checked spark plugs gap, and again things were off. Several days ago I did not check the plugs, so this time found that instead of 0,028 inches per the vehicle’s manual, I had 0.045 inches in #1 and the others were around 0.036 inches. Gapped to 0.028 inches and ordered NGK BP6ET.
After these adjustments followed Ratwell’s procedure and found
#1 at 135lbs
#2 at 125lbs
#3 at 120lbs
#4 at 125lbs
Then, timing. Since last time it fluctuated past to 32 BTDC I had to fix that. At first it went further past 40 BTDC but realized I needed to pull the Vac hose from can. Adjusted distributor and now it it is flat at 28 BTDC!
I played with the idle speed and mixture speed a few days ago and did not mess with these yesterday. But the bus idles better and I think cooler.
All in all I felt more confortable back there. I moved with a lot more ease and confidence and my ears are also listening better. I wanted to wrap this up with a follow up since I left it incomplete. Glad I checked on things. Lesson learned.
Thanks for the support.
Z
_________________
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1974 Westy
1800 cc Type4 Engine
Single Weber Carb |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51128
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 9:02 am Post subject: Re: 72 oil bath filter with 73 PDSIT Solex Possible? |
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Good job, sounds like you are getting it under control.
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