Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Tuning IDA's for E85
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:16 pm    Post subject: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

Anyone with experience doing this?

I have done 2 cars, one with 48 ida's and a 12 car, 2110 with a single 44 IDF.

Both worked out ok, but this is my car and I want to get it perfect.

I am tuning with a LM2 and data logging EGT and CHT on all 4 cyl's. I did not change the fuel setting on the LM2 from gas to E85, so I am still shooting for 13.5 at Idle and no more than 12.5 at WOT.

First question, do I have to change the LM2 to E85, which puts the static to 9.something instead of 14.6 or can I just leave it and tune like I am use to?

Engine specs are on the build thread for this car, most of you answering will know the engine.


My jetting for gas 91 octane with Torco octane boost
F2's
175 mains
195 airs
65 idles with 90 holders
60 pump jets
46 vents

now it is the same except:

80 idles with 100 holders
205 mains

seems ok for first tune, 12.5 at idle and 12.70 end of second gear pull.

I have all stainless and Teflon lines, the pump and regulator are E85 friendly, I shut the pump off and drain the carbs when not driving.


Timing is at 31 up tp 5600 then 32 to 8000 Idles at 1100 at 15 degree all with a MSD power grid
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wreck
Samba Member


Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1211
Location: Brisbane
Wreck is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

do a little research setting the O2 Wideband to read Lambda , then it doesn't matter what fuel you run .

https://www.wide-band.com/help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vwracerdave
Samba Member


Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15278
Location: Deep in the 405
vwracerdave is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

I don't know about Calif, but here pump e85 is not consistent. All the local stations e85 is labeled as "minimum 70% ethanol". If the fuel is not consistent you will have a difficult time dialing in your carbs.

They do make a race grade e85 that is consistent 85% ethanol.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63

Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

I have 2 barrels of E85 race fuel. Got it for free. That’s what I’m tuning with now. I think as long as I stay at 10.7 to 1 If it’s lower at the pump it will still be fine.

I will look up lamba. Or Some can explain the target # I want for idle and wot.
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

Jim Martin mentioned Lambda before also. I watched some videos on YouTube and it makes sense to only tune with it. It doesn’t care what fuel you have and percentage of alcohol. I put a chart below.

I switched my Lm2 over and the laptop settings also.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Chip Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: July 19, 2008
Posts: 967
Location: Utah
Chip is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

ivkings4 wrote:
I have 2 barrels of E85 race fuel. Got it for free. That’s what I’m tuning with now. I think as long as I stay at 10.7 to 1 If it’s lower at the pump it will still be fine.

I will look up lamba. Or Some can explain the target # I want for idle and wot.

The wideband reads lambda and translates to afr. You have told it to use gas values. If you feel comfortable with the gas values you have been currently been targeting, just stick with the same. Stoich afr for e85 is obviously different than stoich for gas. However stoich on the lambda scale is the same, so if the meter sees stoich, then it will output stoich in whatever scale you want to see. So your tune will be fine. I have thousands of miles driven with e85 in my air-cooled, though efi and turbocharged. Never missed a beat shooting for the same targets as gas, while calibrated for the gas scale. Just realize your numbers will all sound skewed to someone that has swapped to the e85 translation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
HotStreetVw
Samba Member


Joined: October 03, 2004
Posts: 871
Location: Wild West
HotStreetVw is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

If your using the gas scale, just be clear when you talk AFR that you tell people its on the gas scale.

I use lambda regardless of E85 or race gas. Its more universal. Someone people don't use lambda and wont understand what your talking about.

Don't fall into the trap that you need to add timing with E85. A bunch of people that have never tuned a car, or a NA car on E85 are going to tell you to add timing. E85 allows for added timing on knock limited engines (typically turbo charged, some NA 4 valve every efficient engines). If your engine is torque limited (and at 31/32 degrees I think it is), adding timing will only reduce the output. I would pull at least 2-4 degrees of timing and start testing.
_________________
4inBhore
50 Split - 2724cc NA. Haltech injected
62 Notchback - 2542cc Turbo WIP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

So timing down 3 or 4 for E85. Then start reading plugs? I can set it to 32 but have my first retard 2 degree and the second 2. Start testing with both on so a total of 4. Then turn one off to see what 2 degree does.

If I leave it the same as gas does it run hotter? Or just less power?
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
HotStreetVw
Samba Member


Joined: October 03, 2004
Posts: 871
Location: Wild West
HotStreetVw is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

ivkings4 wrote:
So timing down 3 or 4 for E85. Then start reading plugs? I can set it to 32 but have my first retard 2 degree and the second 2. Start testing with both on so a total of 4. Then turn one off to see what 2 degree does.

If I leave it the same as gas does it run hotter? Or just less power?


Reading plugs with E85 will be a little tricky. They don't leave a lot of evidence. I would rely on the o2 to get you to target AFR. The heat mark on the ground strap is going to be very faint. 28 degrees is a good starting point. Tune it on the dyno or to MPH. You may find that it wants less timing as the RPMs climb.

I'm not sure on the temps. Definitely flat to less power and your closing on the knock threshold. For example (this is on race gas), my car made 1hp more at 32d than it did at 30d. I run the car at 30d for the added margin.
_________________
4inBhore
50 Split - 2724cc NA. Haltech injected
62 Notchback - 2542cc Turbo WIP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

Went thru half a tank today, 50 miles since the fuel switch

was lean when stabbing it, pump jet.. lean on top end 13.5 afr (I still have the PLX afr gauge in the car). 205 main too small.

Went to 215 mains and 80 pump jets, 80's fixed the lean when stabbing the gas. made a getting on the freeway pass, pulled 2nd to 7k then 5400 in 3rd.


data at 5400 in 3rd gear
.908 lambda, lean
303 head temp, good
1200 EGT , good
56.8 oil pressure
80 deg outside

Idle is around .762 idle is 1180, goes lean right before transition, 14.5 or so, no stumble like on gas tho, just lean. Rich low just off Idle then just before 2800 it goes to the 14.5. Sorry about going from AFR to Lambda.

The 80 idle seems good, with the 100 holder, if I go to the 120 holder its too lean, if I go to a 70 idle its in the 18's,, way lean.

I need to lean a tad at low rpm and richen at 2800. Best way to do that? bigger Idle and higher # air holder?

any input will be appreciated.

Please remember what engine we are dealing with, Big valve, bad port velocity, everything we learn will help across the vw engine community.
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wreck
Samba Member


Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1211
Location: Brisbane
Wreck is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

I’ve never played with IDA’s but reading the wideband thread I would try adjusting the idle to the method of adjusting the mixture screws to the highest idle etc , then I’d adjust the mixture screws in 1/4 to 1/2 to lean out the mixture , judging by how rough the idle gets .big cam ,big ports ,you will never get a midrange idle ratio. Then I’d try a slightly larger main and possibly air to bring the main circuit in earlier .
You will need to aim for a slightly richer ratio at wot in 2 gear , than say on a dyno or the track because the load is not as high .
I had first hand experience of that recently , high 0.8 to low 0.9s as you have 2nd gear and partial 3rd gear pulls onto freeway on ramps , went to the track and it was lean , ended up going from a 200 air to a 190 .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
richie,uk
Samba Member


Joined: August 10, 2004
Posts: 32
Location: london,UK
richie,uk is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 5:30 am    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

about 0.87-0.88 at idle/low load driving and 0.81-0.82 WOT works best for me on E85 N/A
_________________
BH Racing

YAC

We make and sell carbon parts

http://www.rjvolksperformance.com/carbon-fibre.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

I have 200 miles on the e85 tune. Cooler oil and head temps for sure.
My jetting is:
F2’s
80 pump jets
85 idles with 115 holders
210 mails
170 airs

Idles around .88 lambda
Wot .84

Goes to .99 just for a second at the top of transition. Gonna try 110 holders.

It did run the Bowl’s dry racing my wife. 5600rpm in 4th. I would never be in 4th for 1/8 mile racing. 1/4 mile I think I could turn up fuel pressure to 3.5. It’s 2.8 now.
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jim martin
Samba Member


Joined: January 14, 2004
Posts: 205
Location: Vancouver, BC
jim martin is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

richie,uk wrote:
about 0.87-0.88 at idle/low load driving and 0.81-0.82 WOT works best for me on E85 N/A


Richie thanks for posting up those numbers .
Pretty much dead on to what one would expect to run N/A.
Did you find at idle and cruise your timing was kept about the same
As gas and pulled 2-3 out at higher rpm. Or leave timing higher and run richer.
Jim
_________________
B.C's fastest street legal vw , June 2006 Hot VW's feature car 9.81 sec at 145.26mph.
Sponsored by :
LUCAS OIL PRODUCTS http://www.lucasoil.com
KROC head porting services
Dialedinperformance.com
Airspeedparts.com topic http://airspeedparts.com/forums/index.php?topic=914.0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ohio Tom
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1657
Location: Marshallville Ohio
Ohio Tom is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 12:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

idle mixture is controlled by the mixture screws.
while changing the jet holder will affect it, you can, and should compensate by adjusting the mixture screw after each jet change.

Run it FAT...
Lean is dangerous. Especially with a higher compression motor (typical for alcohol).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
richie,uk
Samba Member


Joined: August 10, 2004
Posts: 32
Location: london,UK
richie,uk is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

jim martin wrote:
richie,uk wrote:
about 0.87-0.88 at idle/low load driving and 0.81-0.82 WOT works best for me on E85 N/A


Richie thanks for posting up those numbers .
Pretty much dead on to what one would expect to run N/A.
Did you find at idle and cruise your timing was kept about the same
As gas and pulled 2-3 out at higher rpm. Or leave timing higher and run richer.
Jim


Hi Jim

generally I found it likes a little more timing at idle and just off idle/light load after that left it same as with decent octane petrol

cheers Richie
_________________
BH Racing

YAC

We make and sell carbon parts

http://www.rjvolksperformance.com/carbon-fibre.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

I took timing and added 2 degree from idle up to 2800 then left it at 31 total. Seems to like it.

My first retard takes 2 out from 1300 in case I need to go with regular gas
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jim martin
Samba Member


Joined: January 14, 2004
Posts: 205
Location: Vancouver, BC
jim martin is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

richie,uk wrote:
jim martin wrote:
richie,uk wrote:
about 0.87-0.88 at idle/low load driving and 0.81-0.82 WOT works best for me on E85 N/A


Richie thanks for posting up those numbers .
Pretty much dead on to what one would expect to run N/A.
Did you find at idle and cruise your timing was kept about the same
As gas and pulled 2-3 out at higher rpm. Or leave timing higher and run richer.
Jim


Hi Jim

generally I found it likes a little more timing at idle and just off idle/light load after that left it same as with decent octane petrol

cheers Richie


Richie thanks for the input .
nice to see your taking a look here from time to time ,thats what i started doing , seams there is always something new to scan over .
talk soon , Jim

here you guys go , this chart makes it easy for anyone to understand


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
B.C's fastest street legal vw , June 2006 Hot VW's feature car 9.81 sec at 145.26mph.
Sponsored by :
LUCAS OIL PRODUCTS http://www.lucasoil.com
KROC head porting services
Dialedinperformance.com
Airspeedparts.com topic http://airspeedparts.com/forums/index.php?topic=914.0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
King_vw61
Samba Member


Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
King_vw61 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

Thanks Jim for letting me know the sides didn't look equal. The arm on the 1-2 side carb was loose and acting funny at different rpm's. all fixed now. both sides are the same from Idle to WOT.

E85 is tricky, easy to make fat then at the end of idle circuit 2800 goes lean. Started over since the carb arm was throwing tune off.

here is what i have now

F2's with 10 thou shaved off
77 idles with 100 holders (reamed)
217 mains (reamed)
180 airs
80 pump jets
3.0 fuel pressure (upped from 2.7)
46 vents

I have 210 mains, thats the biggest, then 230's that are drilled. I need 220 so I made the 217, reamer wont go bigger and The next drill I have puts them at 228. Went as low as 170 airs but still wanted more fuel.

If no rain tomorrow I will be cruising to the Carbs and Coffee in Orange with some other cars. This will be a good street test.

I have data from last time I drove the same way last month on Gas.
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
madmike
Samba Member


Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5291
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
madmike is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: Tuning IDA's for E85 Reply with quote

The only reason I'm not running E85 is the size of my moon tank ,Id have to have a 'Long Ranger' fuel cell Laughing
What's your MPG? Laughing
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.