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esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5969 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:19 pm Post subject: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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Hey there, after Matt from Aircooledresearch passed some of my projects have just hit a wall, as he had been the person helping with some of the work and advice. I ended up setting some of it aside, but this one engine is coming back out to get completed as I have just finished the heads for it. It's basically a stock bottom end, all completely balanced, flywheel lightened a bit, and compression bumped to 8.2:1. I'm wanting to run a single carb, and have a modified 40hp muffler that should flow better than the stock 36hp muffler.
Matt was going to have a cam ground for me, he said between stock and his stage 1 cam, but that's no longer possible. Can I run the WW cam, and if there will be issues what are they?
My goal is to have an engine that appears stock, but performs a bit better. It seems that the stock cam would be a step backwards, so what to do?
TIA. _________________ modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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FritzCP Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2005 Posts: 463 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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There are a couple books that I found helpful. "Souping the Volkswagen" by Floyd Clymer was written in 1959 and has a lot of good period correct info in it in regards to how what period parts effect power output, as well as how compression ratio effects is, all specifically for the 36hp engine.
Your specific question on the camshaft selection may be answered, at least partially, since the WW is a supposed copy of the Isky 2J cam (however in reality I have heard the real deal Isky 2J is more aggressive profile).
"How to Hotrod Volkswgen engines" is another good read. Personally i like the vintage first edition with the yellow cover.
In practice, im sure the WW cam will work just fine for your application or use stock with AA 1.15: 1 ratio rockers as well that would help lift without causing interference with the cam lobes if your using a 69.5 crank.
If you want to get crazy, you can buy a cam blank from WW and have a custom grind made by webcam or Schnieder Cams like like did. If you give them all your engine perimeters - including head flow numbers at each lift point, and desired usage (driver/ weekend/ race) they can taylor a cam to your engine. they can even put it on a different LSA. cost was around 100 for the blank and 100 for the grinding. Mine was designed for a blower. not assembled yet though.
My .02 _________________ Fritz Custom Products
Fritz 10 - Tin Screw Torquer
Fritz 124 - Crank Pulley Puller
Fritz 70 - 6306 Bearing Puller
Fritz 44 - Dizzy Puller |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 7:22 am Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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My and your usage is a bit different, though not drastically so, but I'm using the WW cam on my '59 engine with the 36hp Okrasa kit fitted.
I have had a persistent issue with there not being enough rocker arm to valve stem clearance and I believe the higher lift (.345" vs .294" stock) cam is causing it.
I'm using the stock-sized WW 77mm 36hp repro pistons and cylinders, the OG 64mm crank and stock 1pc pushrod/lifters, the WW dual port heads with stock 36hp 1:1 rockers, and AA h beam 5.110" rods.
Even with the WW Okrasa kit installed, yours and my rocker geo dimensions should be largely the same since the heads aren't flycut any (was told this by Tony Moore himself in a phone conversation) and everything else even though it has been refreshed is still at or near stock. I say all that to say that I hope you don't encounter the same issue I'm having.
Specifically, what I see is that even without the valve adjustment screw in the 1:1 stock rockers, there is no clearance at certain rotational angles of the crank and cam. I see this mostly at just before top dead center, and I've spent a very long time trying to solve the problem. I originally tried to shim the rocker stands ( A BIG NO-NO I found out the hard way!), and now I'm trying to grind and open up the tips of the rocker arms with a 60 degree 3/8" countersink.
Sorry this is rambly, and also I apologize I can't offer any driveability perspective since I'm not to that point yet.
Best of luck and I hope your install, if you proceed, is easier than mine has been! |
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FritzCP Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2005 Posts: 463 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:35 am Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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Quote: |
There are a couple books that I found helpful. "Souping the Volkswagen" by Floyd Clymer was written in 1959 and has a lot of good period correct info in it in regards to how what period parts effect power output, as well as how compression ratio effects is, all specifically for the 36hp engine.
Your specific question on the camshaft selection may be answered, at least partially, since the WW is a supposed copy of the Isky 2J cam (however in reality I have heard the real deal Isky 2J is more aggressive profile). |
As a follow up, I looked in the book, and it recommends an Isky 2B grind for a stockish single port engine and the 2J for an Okrasa / free breathing engine.
I ran this through the Wallace camshaft calculator online and came up with"
Stock:
Intake & Exhaust:
220 degree 107.5 LSA
5 degree overlap
2B cam
Intake: 254 degree 108 LSA
Exhaust: 254 degree 107 LSA
39 degree overlap
2J cam
Intake: 253 degree 108.5 LSA
Exhaust 253 degree 106.5 LSA
38 degrees overlap
Porsche 1500
Intake / Exhaust
253 degree 107.5 LSA
38 degree overlap _________________ Fritz Custom Products
Fritz 10 - Tin Screw Torquer
Fritz 124 - Crank Pulley Puller
Fritz 70 - 6306 Bearing Puller
Fritz 44 - Dizzy Puller
Last edited by FritzCP on Thu May 13, 2021 2:05 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5969 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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Good feedback and good info, thank you both.
Interesting to see the cam differences between the Isky 2B and 2J. I wonder, would these specs be enough for Web to make a 2B clone for me? I might call them to discuss it.
The lift issue and Okrasa heads is something I've read about before, though I'm not 100% sure what the reason is. It seems that you've either got to cut the pushrods, or machine the rocker arms, or both. I have these heads fly cut and a full fin trimmed off. I'll mock up the assembly and figure out what pushrod length is ideal before cutting mine. It should be exactly what I cut off the chamber, but with more lift I'll check it to be sure.
SD _________________ modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:00 am Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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esde wrote: |
Good feedback and good info, thank you both.
Interesting to see the cam differences between the Isky 2B and 2J. I wonder, would these specs be enough for Web to make a 2B clone for me? I might call them to discuss it.
The lift issue and Okrasa heads is something I've read about before, though I'm not 100% sure what the reason is. It seems that you've either got to cut the pushrods, or machine the rocker arms, or both. I have these heads fly cut and a full fin trimmed off. I'll mock up the assembly and figure out what pushrod length is ideal before cutting mine. It should be exactly what I cut off the chamber, but with more lift I'll check it to be sure.
SD |
It sounds like you have a good plan, good luck
I tried those 2 piece AA 36hp lifters with cut-to-length pushrods, and couldn't get that setup right so I switched back to stock 1 pc units, but still see the issues I mentioned. I'll try to just open up/grind the rocker arm tips and see if that works and report back so you can hopefully benefit from my findings. Otherwise I'm going to have to somehow shave a few thousandths off the pushrod/lifters. To do that however I have not found a good way to separate the lifter from the pushrod without bending/galling the pushrod. Fun times! |
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esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5969 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 8:48 am Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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I have separated the lifter/ pushrods successfully. you need to make some soft jaws for your vice to grab the pushrod and then make a slide hammer claw to grab the lifter and tap them apart. I used some brass for the soft jaws and a radius bit on a router to make the rounded slots. It's a little crude but grabs the pushrod well enough and doesn't mar it. A bit of heat on the lifter helps too.
PM sent BTW _________________ modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7215 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:57 am Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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Hello.
I am a little curius as to why you had clearance problems valve to guide. Did you get the guides installed too high? I have lifted the valves to more than 0,400" on several occasions in stockish engines. The first problem normally seems to be coil bind...
On one hot rod 1640 displacement (83.25*76 stroke) I had 0,80" off set retainers made and lifted a 37 mm valve 0,462" on the intake using springs from a Lotus Coventry engine. Works very well. (I used Speedwell 1,4 rockers) _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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Hi Alstrup, was your question directed at esde or myself? I don't want to hijack his thread, but just in case and really quick... I'm using out of the box WW Okrasa heads and am having an issue with the tip of the valve making contact with the rocker arm boss where the adjustment screw goes. The valve guides are whatever height WW and/or their manufacturer set them at.
At various points in the 360 degree crank rotation, there appears to be plenty of travel of the rocker arm, but just before TDC the lash tightens up significantly and I have to take the adjustment screw all the way out and even then the inward facing part of the rocker arm boss and valve tip(aka valve stem) interfere. A few more degrees of rotation and the clearance opens back up until the next time I'm on the other side of and just before TDC. Weird stuff.
I believe that if I simply grind some material from the rocker face the problem will be solved. However, 36hp rockers don't have alot of material that can safely be removed without weakening the rocker. I've also tried a 60 degree 5/16" counterbore but it wasn't big enough. I'll try a 3/8" counterbore tomorrow. I just need a tiny bit more clearance at the rocker face.
Tony Moore was very surprised I have any issue since I'm using their out of the box Okrasa kit, but I can't deny the problem is there. I just wonder if its because I'm not using their stroker 69mm crank with pushrod spacers like most other hot rod 36hp builds, while I am still using the higher lift cam. My scenario might be a non-issue with the marginally wider stroker engine and/or the stock cam.
Others who are running the Okrasa kit with stock stroke crank might weigh in with their experience, which hopefully has been easier than mine, due either to plain good luck, more engine building experience, or good old-fashioned ingenuity, all 3 of which I'm coming up short on.
Ted |
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Mr. Okrasa Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000 Posts: 727 Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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fl59bug wrote: |
At various points in the 360 degree crank rotation, there appears to be plenty of travel of the rocker arm, but just before TDC the lash tightens up significantly and I have to take the adjustment screw all the way out and even then the inward facing part of the rocker arm boss and valve tip(aka valve stem) interfere. A few more degrees of rotation and the clearance opens back up until the next time I'm on the other side of and just before TDC. Weird stuff. Ted |
I'm reading this above and wondering why you lose rocker arm travel when you are near TDC and then when you rotate the engine, you gain more travel? If anything, you should have the most travel when you are at TDC since the lifter is near the "heel" of the cam. What I gather from this is: you are off 180* off or should I say on the exhaust stroke or....the distributor drive gear (if installed) is not in the "right" location for whatever reason or.....the cam gear in NOT installed correctly on the camshaft or......the timing marks on the crank and cam gear are aligned in the "proper" position when the cam was laid in the block prior to closing up the short block.
If you can perform these checks and see if any are the cause and post?
Good luck. Joe _________________
See my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/okrasa/
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint
Denzel engine running. See this link: https://youtu.be/DgUlsQDTXTE
VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 6:51 am Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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Thanks Mr. Okrasa,
I'll record a youtube video and post it here since there are too many moving parts & relationships to accurately describe in just a few words. No doubt my cobweb brain to mouth connection is misrepresenting one or more pieces of important information. Video will present things accurately.
I will say that I'm using #1 I&E to do my checks, and that when the distributor/crank pulley notch/#1 piston indicate TDC, without the rocker arm assembly and just the pushrods themselves installed, the pushrod tips are both equally extended from their holes, which to me is what I want to see, since in theory that is a first step in verifying the cam lobes are at their "heel" and with everything installed #1 I&E valves would be completely closed.
Cam gear is a -1 from a 356 porsche, and was installed dot to dot with the crank gear. I have in the past flubbed up the distributor drive gear install, so I'm not ruling that out.
I should be able to put a dial indicator on the pushrods and with the engine rotated vertically up to keep the lifters in contact with the cam, observe that the dial indicator is at its lowest deflection when #1 is at TDC. This would be proof that I've not installed the cam gear incorrectly or misaligned cam and crank dots. I do believe I've done this before, but I have a bad memory so I'll do it again, hopefully captured in the video.
A few minutes ago with #1 still at what I "think" is TDC, I did partially reassemble the 1/2 rocker shaft with just the #1 rockers, cinched it down, observed a good amount of travel of the rocker arms without the screws installed then threaded the adjuster screws in, tightened the lash to .004" and rotated the engine all the way back around to #1 TDC again, and the lash didn't seem to tighten up. However, I've only got perhaps 2 threads of the adjuster showing on the valve side. This exercise doesn't support my earlier findings, but I'm certain I saw interference before. I have mixed and matched the rocker arms, so maybe I have a bad one? Ugh |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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To avoid any further threadjacking of esde's topic I've started another thread, "36hp cam checking video" in which I try and demonstrate what I'm seeing as far as the adjustability (or lack thereof) of my almost finished WW Okrasa build with the WW .345" lift cam.
I may be conjuring up a big bunch of nothing, as I can't seem to repeat the issue from before where the rocker adjustment tightened up to almost nothing near TDC.
Please have a look and let me know if anyone sees anything wrong in my setup or checking process.
Ted |
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esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5969 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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Does anyone have the cam card or specs from an Iskenderian 2B, 2J, or the Wolfsburg West cam?
I've spoken with a few people, and have had more than one tell me that the WW cam was supposed to be a copy of the Isky 2J, but that it is actually closer to the 2B. I know it's a slim chance finding all three cam cards to compare, but maybe? _________________ modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: wolfsburg west cam with stock induction? |
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