Same as 010 and 019 Distributors

[tasb]

I have had a number of customers lately who flat out refuse to buy a distributor unless it has an 010 or 019 badge.

It doesn't seem to matter or sink in that with only three minor differences there are identical distributors available that only lack those little digits on the badge.

I can explain, clarify, cajole all I want, but they walk away disappointed and empty handed.

In January 1954 Bosch introduced the VJ 4 BR 8 into VW Bus engine production. It continued in use until the introduction of the "bastard 40 horse" in late 1959. in May of 1964 Bosch changed their part numbering system from a series of letters and numbers to a series of ten only numbers. Had this system not have changed Bosch would have re-introduced the VJ 4 BR 8 in the late 1960's not an "019". Because of the part number change that Bosch made the VJ 4 BR 8 became the 0 231 129 019.

I mentioned three minor changes. The first would simply be the change in the badge to reflect the new part numbering system. The second would simply be the date of manufacture from some time in the late 1950's to the late 1960's and beyond. The third change was the use of two bushings inside the distributor housing shaft. Prior to this change the shaft had been run directly in the housing of all Bosch cast iron housings. I consider this a minor difference since Bosch had been manufacturing distributors without the bushings for over fifty years without issues. In twenty years of restoring distributors I have encountered less than a half dozen cases where lateral wear in the cast iron housing to shaft interface has been an issue.

The "010" story is essentially identical to the "019". The VJ 4 BR 25 began life in late 1959 through 1960 as the stock distributor for the 1960 Bus. The part numbering change resulted in the re-introduction as the 0 231 129 010 again in the late 1960's.

Now I understand that hobbyist's get an image or "dream" of what they want their "jewel" to look like. I guess it comes down to a willingness to compromise a bit on your dream. At present you can compromise or you can walk away empty handed and wait until things might change a bit. Since the pandemic, car shows and swaps have been severely limited or shut down completely. Being able to purchase a core distributor to work on has become difficult. Purchasing a core online for $200+ is absurd particularly if you are a restorer who hopes to gain a bit of profit from their work. It's confounding to me how Ego (gotta have my dream fullfilled no compromise) trumps necessity so frequently. I've contemplated removing the BR 25 badges and installing brand new 010 badges as one supplier appears to be doing, but ethically I can't bring myself to do it. If a core comes to me minus a badge and it's an earlier BR 25 I don't have a problem putting an 010 badge on it as I have done on a couple of occasions, since a reproduction BR 25 Badge does not exist, to my knowledge. I don't have an issue painting an 019 as a Screamer blue since even Bosch simply took a regular black painted 019 and painted blue over it. in all other ways a Screamer is simply an "019".
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

[Glenn]

I've sold quite a few that were missing the name plate. Some people don't care and some do.

Some want the name plate to be perfect and will pass if there's a tiny blemish.

And some want a specific date code.

I tell them what I have and if they pass it goes to the next person. Every one I had sold so its no sweat off my back.

Remember... the customer is always right.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

[Erik G]

super odd rant

[Scott65Beetle]

Customer is not always right. In fact sometimes they are an a-hole who is dead wrong.

[Frederik]

If something, building a vintage speed engine a VJ(R) badged distributor would be more "correct" than a later "019/010"?

To add to the info on part numbers, from 1968 Bosch spare parts book under type 2: (old and new part number)

VJ 4 BR 8 MK - 0 231 110 005
VJR 4 BR 8 MK - 0 231 129 019 ("019")

VJ 4 BR 25 MK - 0 231 110 037
VJR 4 BR 25 MK - 0 231 129 020

(1966 and 1976) under vw industrial engines:
VJR 4 BR 25/1 MK - 211 905 205F - 0 231 129 010 ("010")

Vw industrial engines was probably the No 1 use of the VJ(R)4BR25 and "010" distributors, as it was used for them well over a decade after the one year type 2 usage (ok some probably sold as replacements). If it wasn't for the stationary use, a "010" badged distributor would probably not even had existed. Also prior to BR25/010, BR2-8 and 383 was used for industrial engines.

As to the VJ(R)4BR8 ("019") there is accually a small difference, as they up to february -56 had slightly more total advance compared to mars -56 and later.

In the 1967-68 parts list VJ 4 BR 25 MK (0 231 110 037) and VJR 4 BR 25 MK (0 231 129 020) are listed to have different advance springs. In all earlier lists I have they have the same springs, so this must be a typo.

[[email protected]]

[Glenn]

Advertising and/or selling a BR25 as a 010 is unethical. While they curves are the same there are differences, mostly visual. When I sell a BR25 or a BR8 I sell them cheaper.

And yes, if you're building an Okrasa or other vintage performance engine the older VJ4BRx is the correct one.

Everyone sells, if it doesn't then you're doing something wrong.

BTW, Bosch discontinued the rebuild kits in 2016. So unless you have a stash, I do, that might be why they're not selling.

_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

[vwchad]

Out of the kindness of my heart I'll take any BR8 or BR25 that you can't sell off your hands and I won't charge you a dime. DM me for my address. I'll even cover shipping.

[mark tucker]

i wont have the 010...never tried the other one....I think I have one on the shelf somewhere...

[tasb]

[quote="Glenn"]Advertising and/or selling a BR25 as a 010 is unethical. While they curves are the same there are differences, mostly visual. When I sell a BR25 or a BR8 I sell them cheaper.

And yes, if you're building an Okrasa or other vintage performance engine the older VJ4BRx is the correct one.

Everyone sells, if it doesn't then you're doing something wrong.

BTW, Bosch discontinued the rebuild kits in 2016. So unless you have a stash, I do, that might be why they're not selling.



Never miss a chance to offer up a dig do you Glenn? never said I had distributors that weren't selling and I have been restoring distributors for only one year less than you have. I'm pretty clear on what works and what doesn't by now. I have pretty new stuff too. I just don't flash them around like a $100 bill every chance I get.

More than 80% of these have successfully gone back into service since i took this pic of my 010 019 inventory in November 2017.

Here's what I was saying, I thought it was fairly clear. I have a few VJ 4 BR 8 and VJ R 4 BR 25 badged distributors remaining and I get inquiries about "010's" and "019" distributors all the tine. When I offer up one of the few BR 8's or BR 25's that I have available a potential customer insists on a "010" or "019" badge and goes away empty handed since I'm not willing to re badge them. Which is why I posted this "rant", nothing odd about it.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

[tasb]

[jpaull]

Tasb, Great post!
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg

Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.

[Glenn]

[tasb]

Because as stated above(four times now), they are all gone except for a few BR 8's and BR 25's.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

[spencerfvee]

years ago .when the 010 and 019 ruled .and was the hot set up . i am talking 60s 70s there were others like the Mallory and mr gasket bug spark . came out then too . i have used all the above over the years .in my race cars . i did a test at the drag strip. i had a bug that ran from 13.50 to 13.59 in the 1/4 mile . so 1 ran the 019 in my motor down the track .the bug ran a 13.52 i installed the 010 and my motor ran a 13.55 .i installed the bug spark and the motor ran a 13.56 i next installed .the Mallory it ran a 13.50 .i all so i drove this bug on the street all the above distributors worked just fine . later on when the 010 019 replacement parts started to dry up .and the cost of the 019 and 010 parts went sky high and the 009 came out . it was cheaper to use the 009 for every day driving . and it was more easy to find parts for a 009 . .i under stand why some people want the look of a vintage 019 or 010 for there vintage motors . my self i have liked the Mallory because its so easy to set it up with a Mallory key to the advance i want to use . for drag racing and street driving .you will find that people wont run any thing but a 010 019 then there are people that only run 009s right now in 2021 there are so many brands of distributor out there being sold that are way better than the above distributors . more than we had for sale in the 1960s and 1970s good luck finding a distributor that meets your needs just my take on distributors spencerfvee

[Glenn]

At the drag strip you're always over 3500rpm so the curve is meaningless.

Now if you have crankfire you can program the advance above 3500rpm where it can help.

BTW, if you have the knowledge and time, crank fire is the way to go. You can program any curve you want.

And I totally agree that the 010 and 019 are for those that want the vintage look and drop it in and forget it. These are the same people that go for the 356 oil fill and wire mesh air cleaners.

They are not for everyone and there is no "one size fits all".
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

[Frederik]

I can't really coment if 010/019 is more popular than vjr4br25/vjr4br8 or not. Personally I do get the vintage look, if you want a specific date code and all that, I'm the same or worse. But at the same time vjr4br25 and vjr4br8 was the Bosch distributors sold/used for performance vw at least up to the mid 60s when the only thing changed, as stated, was that the the partnumbers for them changed, but performance was still the same. In my book a VJR4.. distributor is way cooler/old school than a 010/019 if you care about the vintage look, if you don't it should not matter VJR4../010, 019/other?

The only explanation I can see is that 1) The general rant has been get a 010/019 ("advertised" better) but in fact it could just as mutch have been get a vjr4br25/vjr4br8. 2) The VJR4BR25 is often described as a type 2 distributor, hinting it's inferior and the 010 as a replacement and "performance" distributor sold for more $. It could just as easely be VJR4BR25 as the "original performance" distributor and the 010 as a stationary/industrial distributor or later replacement. What sounds best? (In fact all above is true for both) It's kind of like the 009 once was advertised as the replacement and performance distributor to get.. but things change.

[Glenn]

[tasb]

Frederick, you've always got interesting posts with data and documentation to back up your statements. Interesting that there were minute changes that occurred over time. Small enough that after 50+ years of performance the differences are probably " a wash" ( insignificant).

Our views on 010 vs BR 25 (et al) are pretty close as well. In part I'm attempting to educate the initiate with this topic, into the idea that it doesn't have to be an 010 when a BR 25 not only can fullfill your needs but might even be more desirable or correct in reality, in some cases. Yes, it might also help in selling off my remaining BR 8 and BR 25's, but that's actually secondary for me.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

[tasb]

I've oft wondered why the "020" number shows up on the later 010 badges along with the 211 905 205 F. It looks like the 020 arrived with the screened rotor where a regular VJ 4 BR 25 did not. I think though that I've only ever seen VJ"R" 4 BR 25 badged distributors which means the same thing as the 020. while I'm sure Bosch had their reasons for putting the 211 905 205 F identifier on the badged it has created confusion because their is documentation out there that shows, incorrectly that that part number is lumped in with BRS 383 production from the early l950's. Again, the 211 F designation would not have come into use until after 1964 when Bosch changed their part numbering system.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse