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big bus mike
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:58 pm    Post subject: What to do first Reply with quote

Hello everyone.

I picked up a 72 411 coupe with a 4spd manual recently. It's a very solid, rust free car that has been sitting for 20+ years.


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My goal is to press it into daily driver service. With that in mind, I have the following in my mind as far as order of operations. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

Rebuild the brakes
Rebuild the clutch hydraulics
Rebuild fuel system
Check engine compression
Rebuild transmission with counter-shaft modifications
Re-seal / rebuild engine.
re-do interior
Bodywork / paint
Get electrical system working
Suspension rebuild / Audi strut install.
Tires / wheels

Does this seem like a logical order of operations?
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Cees Klumper
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do first Reply with quote

If it were me, I would start with the fuel system (if fuel has been in the system idle for that many years). I would do all the same things, except I would not rebuild the engine nor the transmission - unless you know they definitely need it - I would see if they function properly after replacing fluids, and maybe the most important gaskets. You can always rebuild later. This way it's less of a project and can get you going sooner. BTW I really like the wheels. Tires should be replaced of course.
Does it really need paint? Looks good to me! Very Happy Maybe just clearcoat it, and save that 'patina'.
Seriously, good luck on the project!
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'71 411 stationwagon
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do first Reply with quote

No....while all of this is good opinion.....START with the transmission NOW.

The 004 four speed is NOTHING like any of the other ACVW transmissions. You need to know that the one you have is solid.....Unless you want to put an automatic in it.

100% of ALL of the 004's require work to fix the defects they came with...that will eventually ill 100% of them. Yes...they will drive. Yes they run long miles. But typically in the 70-80k range....the two main issues start (countershaft and spider gears). They will keep driving just nifty through 100k miles....and then POW.

Yes...you will look at the diff and pinion bearings and think....like someone rebuilding a bug or 091...."these look pretty good...I could leave them alone"...UH....no...you can't. This is not a bug or bus trans.
This is a full hypoid diff. Once you start getting a smidge of wear to the pinion or diff bearings.....it multiplies.

If you want it to survive.....you need to open it up, replace the diff and pinion bearings....the countershaft bearings and hopefully catch them before the shaft starts wearing.....and aside from those few parts, gaskets and seals....you can be fine.

Yes....your transmission needs work if you want it to survive. Notice that START is in bold. It will take you 4-6 months just to get pinion shaft bearings. Take this one slow....while you work on other things as well.

These transmissions do not grow on trees....less than 5000 shipped to the US (more in Canada) and there are few if any spare parts. The basic refurb is more of "CONSERVATION".

Really the engine is the same way. In my opinion and experience.....trying to do a 20-30 year down the line "barn find" start up.....you know...you see it all the time on YouTube...."barn find!...will it start after 30 years?"........this attitude is a waste of rare parts.
Well cared for....the domed pistons can last 250K miles....if you dont scuff them trying to start an engine that has rusty 20 year old cylinders or collapse the skirts.
Outside of that...the domed pistons are rare as hens teeth.

So I would do a complete teardown...clean it up....check everything.....replace what you need to....and you can probably put most of it back together with at worst a new set of rings.

If you find the classic type 4 cam wear pattern starting at all....throw the cam and lifters in the trash and get a new set. Its highly likely that the main bearings will be fine. Pistons will be fine.

Not rebuilding the heads on a type 4...especially the 411 where there were known valve issues across a year or so....is a recipe for disaster. Not what you want for a daily driver.

The suspension and brakes are what you work on in between...while you are waiting for engine and trans parts.

There is no need at this time to rebuild the clutch hydraulic system....yet.

First....where are you going to get parts? Second...you wont need it for a while.

Third....as I am finally getting out from under where I have been for about 3.5 months.....I am finally just about to do a little nickel plating and boot molding....in support of the 1.8L engine build I should have finished last year.

I will have a solution for the clutch slave and master not far down the line. Ray
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big bus mike
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: What to do first Reply with quote

Thanks guys for your advice and guidance. This car came with quite a few spares that the previous owner (hi Blaine!) has collected, including two extra 004 transaxles. My plan was to go through the spares and get one of those transaxles ready and swap it. Is this advisable? Any reason this would be a bad idea? Thanks!
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big bus mike
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do first Reply with quote

This is one of my spare transaxles. Noticed this crack. I assume this is bad?

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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: What to do first Reply with quote

Unless the transmission was dropped…..what causes that damage….is usually spider gear failure (about 95% of the time) or...in rare cases.... pinion bearing or pinion gear failure.

If it broke from being dropped, the guts are likely still good. If it broke from the spider gear or bearing issue…the differential is gone.

What happens….and this is NOT really possible on a normal beetle or bus transmission differential (that I know of…and I could be wrong) ….meaning this failure type only really happens on the 004 or the 003 automatic……is that over time and miles, the diff output shaft shims wear. This allows slack between the CV hubs and the thrust ring that is between the CV hub and the diff housing.

This slack and in/out movement causes the wear of the output shaft shims inside of the differential to accelerate. This allows slack between the output shaft crown gear and the spider gears. The 004 has very high ratio...meaning very few teeth, long tooth spider gears. This means that these cars have a very unique, sure footed feel when powering through a turn. Hard to explain unless you have driven them many miles.

But…this also means it has lots of gear tooth sliding pressure. When the gear mesh adjustment changes due to the thrust washers wearing out….the wear on the spider gear teeth accelerates. Spalling starts.

If you live and drive a lot in urban areas…meaning turning lots of corners and lots of curved streets….this wears the spider gears out fast when the shim stack is off. Eventually a tooth chips or cracks off….falls out of the oil hole and lands right where the ring and pinion mesh.

When that happens….it usually does not trash the ring gear. It trashes or damages the pinion gear….IF..... it just bounces around a bit before falling into the case. You can actually drive on one like this for a long time and not know it’s happened.

But…that damage in your picture…the cracked case right at the adjuster ring bore….happens when a broken spider gear tooth (and very occasionally a thin edge of the pinion gear)…breaks off and jams right at the thick cord of the pinion gear tooth…and locks the ring and pinion solid…..at speed.

When that happens, because of the hypoid gear mesh angle….the ring gear tries to “climb” over the pinion gear. It creates tons of leverage in a split second….and it shatters the case right where you see that crack.
It is loud when this happens…and instantaneous. It sounds like a gunshot….BANG!

This is exactly what I meant by POW in my post a few posts back.

Yes...any ACVW transmission could do this...but the unique thing about the 004...is that when a spider gear tooth breaks....the only place it can fall out...is right into the ring and pinion mesh point. This is very less likely to happen in any other VW trans where the pinion gear intersects the ring gear at roughly 9 o'clock when looking at it from the driver side.

So I wrote a long post yesterday and for some reason it did not post. I was in a bad signal location.

What needs to be done is a preventive teardown…on ALL 004 transmissions….if you want them to survive…...this is less of a rebuild and more of ….”CONSERVATION”. All of this is is pretty much listed in my 004 rebuild thread.

I stopped that work a few years back…not because I am not going to finish it…but because I do not need the trans yet….and I was waiting on parts. It took most of a year to get the pinion bearings. In reality…I now know what the supply issue is and they can be gotten in about 5 weeks.

Summit racing was not lying to me.

They can get them…always….but… they will NEVER be in stock like their website lists. Whenever you order these bearings, they have a great relationship with Timken….and they order them.

They take about 5-6 weeks. I went through the order process with about three companies…and waited 3-5 weeks for each company before they usually canceled the order because THEY could not get them.
I went through it once with Summit….and canceled it because I was pissed it took so long.
I reordered when they explained the issue…and just waited…..and they arrived finally.

So to keep this short….you need to tear the 004 down and address the countershaft needle bearing and shaft wear issue and spider gear issue.

Problem #1:

1. You MUST catch it before the case hardening of the shaft has ANY marring at all. If there is even the tiniest bit of marring to the countershaft…you need a new shaft. Needle bearings cannot survive unless the shaft is perfect.
You can get one made for rather cheap….but it will not be hardened.

2. That means that you either have to change the bearing type from needle to a sleeve type bearing or buy a piece of exact diameter hardened linear motion shaft and do a mod to the case to install it.

3. You need to do a couple of minor mods to increase oiling to the counter shaft bearings. The poor oiling is why this problems starts in the first place.
Mind you…it takes about 70-80k miles before this wear problem starts. And it drives just fine for tens of thousands of miles……..before the howling starts. Once the howling starts……IT IS FAR TOO LATE.

The gears will be ruined….and in the worst case scenario…which is cracked needles in the bearings and a notch worn in the counter shaft…..and I have seen this three times….you will NEVER…EVER…be able to disassemble the counter shaft without destroying the case.

When the needles wear a notch in the shaft, the shaft cannot be pulled out because the needle bearing assembly becomes a wedge between the notch/shaft and case bore. Its done.
So you need to catch this and repair it.

Problem #2:

The differential….you need to replace the ring and pinion bearings.

I stopped my work…because of parts yes…but also because you will NOT be able to get your hands on the tooling set to adjust the differential. Its different than other VW’s and the rebuild tooling set from beetle or 091 transmission will not work on this unit because of its design.

But you can do it quite well....its not that hard. Tedious yes....

You need to know these things:

1. the spacing/free-play of the output shafts and shims in the differential to keep the spider gears set up right…that’s all in the “without guesswork book”. Its just shims so this is easy.

2. You need to check and adjust the backlash between the ring and pinion. This is also easy with a dial indicator. You just need to make simple bracket just like any other trans. This 091 style side adjusting rings make this very easy.

3. You need to be able to measure and set the pinion gear depth. There is a shim between the splined on gear and the outer pinion bearing. This is almost impossible without the factory tool set or a jig.

I was in the process of building a jig plate to measure this…when I realized that….IF….the pinion bearings are not destroyed or really worn out so that there is a HUGE amount of slack…..then the adjustment....set up for this case...with this gear set... is already there.

See…each pinion and ring gear set……is already set up to the CASE….set up to the DIFFERENTIAL CASE…by the factory.
This is done by the large flat, five bolt shim between the outer pinion bearing carrier and the case…that sets this depth….as well as the shim between the gear and bearing.

The pre-load on the pinion is set by the ring adjusted at the other end of the pinion carrier.

So as long as you have the original ring and pinion in the case….the only amount that pinion gear to ring position will be out is if there is a serious difference between the old and new pinion bearing.

You can adjust gear backlash at the ring gear side adjusters….so this will not affect pinion depth. You adjust differential side bearing pre-load at the ring gear side adjusters…so this also does not affect pinion depth.

So what you first want to do is measure your new pinion bearing and race stacked up…on a flat surface….and compare to the old. If you are out more than about .002”…you may need to lap the shim between bearing and gear to set it right…or you may need to add .001” of shim stock…but that’s it.

So the easiest way to check this pinion to ring gear mesh…..is to NOT take the differential apart until you have cleaned it squeaky clean with solvent. You remove the transfer case and gear stack so you are down to the mainshaft and differential.

Then take some read or yellow lead compound or gear marking compound….and after setting proper ring gear backlash….turn it around…inspect the mesh pattern…photograph that…call this the bench mark.

Then on reassembly….adjust everything and check it again. If the pattern is the same….ring to pinion mesh is good. If preloads are set…you are good.

Lastly…..the gear shift section of the 004….I call the transfer case. The main gear stack section and counter gear shim…are set up TO THE CASE. If you change the guts….you use the same shim.

If you change the outer case and keep the guts….you need to re-shim to fit the gear position to the case.

This is the same for the differential an mainshaft assembly. If you are keeping the same case but changing guts…the shim between 1st and 2nd and 3rd and 4th may need to be changed. If you are changing the outer case….typically the shims stay the same. Ray
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