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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76938 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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tasb wrote: |
I've oft wondered why the "020" number shows up on the later 010 badges along with the 211 905 205 F. |
It's "030".
_________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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VeloMikey Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2012 Posts: 654 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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I am bummed! I have a 010 when I thought I had a BR 25. I guess I am a cool kid now. _________________ '58 Ghia 2387cc with a Berg / Folts 5 Speed
Ghia Build Thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768748 |
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spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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Glenn wrote: |
At the drag strip you're always over 3500rpm so the curve is meaningless.
Now if you have crankfire you can program the advance above 3500rpm where it can help.
BTW, if you have the knowledge and time, crank fire is the way to go. You can program any curve you want.
And I totally agree that the 010 and 019 are for those that want the vintage look and drop it in and forget it. These are the same people that go for the 356 oil fill and wire mesh air cleaners.
They are not for everyone and there is no "one size fits all". |
............................................................. not all ways true .on a drag race motor the advance curve means a lot for good 60 foot times. i all ways set a drag race disy up with 12to 14 degs int. all in from 2,500 to 2,800 rpm all in by 32degs total . the last thing you want is for a drag race car motor to do is fall on its ass when .when the green light pops. i have used this set up for over 45 years this set up has worked on every drag race motor i have built and some of my street motors . just my two cents spencerfvee |
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earthquake Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008 Posts: 3984 Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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I have some of those but they never seem to go in a motor, they just sit on the shelf and look pretty. Ignore the two Resolit's, there just there to maintain balance on the shelf. I also keep a rack of 009's for some reason.
eQ
ps, one of those 019's is a Ring original. _________________ 74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76938 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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earthquake wrote: |
ps, one of those 019's is a Ring original. |
2nd from the right _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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earthquake Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008 Posts: 3984 Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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Glenn wrote: |
earthquake wrote: |
ps, one of those 019's is a Ring original. |
2nd from the right |
DING,DING,DING! WINNER!
you win a cookie. _________________ 74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6616 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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tasb wrote: |
It doesn't seem to matter or sink in that with only three minor differences there are identical distributors available that only lack those little digits on the badge.
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There are a few more differences in the housing. There are dimples and other marks that help tell the difference between a BR8 and 019, 010 and a 025, BR9 and 022, etc _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here)
Last edited by heimlich on Mon May 24, 2021 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3444 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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Are timing maps for the 010, for ex, stair stepped, or are they are straight line from zero to full advance? I have seen both on here |
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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tasb wrote: |
While I'm sure Bosch had their reasons for putting the 211 905 205 F identifier on the badged it has created confusion because their is documentation out there that shows, incorrectly that that part number is lumped in with BRS 383 production from the early l950's. Again, the 211 F designation would not have come into use until after 1964 when Bosch changed their part numbering system. |
The confusion might be due to VW replacement/spare parts lists. By the late 60's of course the "383" was discontinued, for replacement VW listed VJR4BR8 ("019") but it was also discontinued (not by Bosch but by VW) and replaced by VJR4BR25 ="010"= vw spare part number 211 905 205F. Hence if you look in a later VW parts book 211..F will show up as replacement for 383. VJR4BR25 (010, 211..F it's the same distributor) was vw replacement distributor by this time for all centrifugal only distributors, including the earlier VJ4BR25, VJR4BR25, vw 211 905 205H*. It's not that strange as they also used it for their industrial engines and they only needed to have one centrifugal only distributor in their spare parts program that was still in use.
This (but now it's only speculation) I think is one of the reason the "screamer 019" exist. VW discontinued the VJR4BR8/"019" as spare part and a smart Bosch advertising came up with the idea to paint them blue and sell them as a performance distributor. I've always wondered why not a "screamer 010" existed, ok the "019" might be seen as more allround/street friendly but why not the option of a "010"? The answer is probably that the "010" still was a vw part, still used (industrial) and spare part - locked to vw, but the 019 was a leftover, abandoned by VW. At least I wouldn't be surpriced if the first screamer kits arrived around the same time vw discontinued the VJR4BR8/"019".
*) The earlier VJ(R)4BR25 distributors as in one of my previous posts accually got other "new" Bosch spare parts numbers when the new system came, but I think this only is "on paper". I would think the accual distributors had the old "VJ.." badge until the "010" came. What is the earliest "010" distributor you have encountered?
From the 1968-69 vw workshop manual listing carburetors, distributors and replacements: 25hp, serie distributor type VE 4 BRS 383, discontinued as spare part. Replacement type VJR 4 BR 8, spare part number: discontinued as spare part. Replacement type VJR 4 BR 25, spare part number 211 905 205 F.
Last edited by Frederik on Tue May 18, 2021 10:02 am; edited 5 times in total |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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I'm finding that there are all kinds of graphs. There are too many variables to account for. The intervals on the x and y axis, individual distributor differences, age of the distributor, variations in machine testers,.
There are two different weights in an "010". _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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I haven't really documented the manufacture dates on the 010 and 019 distributors. I've encountered a fair number that did not have a manufacture date stamp on them. I believe the late 1960's would be an accurate guess. based on experience Bosch was purging their stock of these in the late 1970's. You could easily create a screamer 010, just paint it! ( a joke) _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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I'm sorry if I desorientate the topic, but I accually think it is pretty silly if people think the 010 is more a "performance" distributor, more value or is anything than a later replacement/ new numbering system for the VJR4BR25. Look in a 60's "tuning handbook" and you will see it was VJR4BR25 that was the hot shit. Same same but different (or not). To add Bosch kept the old/new part numbers for some time so a 010 is also a VJR4BR25 on everything but the badge..
From "Volkswagen handbook -by the editors of Hot rod magazine" 1963
but if you look close it's not a BR25 distributor in the picture.. |
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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And just to add to the documentation, here is the Bosch 0 231 129 010 ("010") vw 211 905 205F in the 1977 vw workshop manual for industrial engines. It's the original use of it, other than as spare part.
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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chrisflstf wrote: |
Are timing maps for the 010, for ex, stair stepped, or are they are straight line from zero to full advance? I have seen both on here |
The factory advance curves was to be used for checking if a distributor did perform within specification, not to be a exact replicas of a true graph. This is a graph I did from the factory check points and as a comparison of distributors used on industrial engines, again not a real life graph.
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76938 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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Bosch was still making 010s in the early 70s.
$23.95... how many do you want?
BTW, IDAs for $119.95 each. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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In 1971 the minimum wage was $1.60/hour, less than $13/day before taxes. I couldn't afford even one of them.
chrisflstf wrote: |
Are timing maps for the 010, for ex, stair stepped, or are
they are straight line from zero to full advance? I have seen both on here |
So, in Fredericks graph above you are seeing "stair steps" with two distributors. One weight pulls on the advance until it max's out and then there's about 300 to 800 rpm depending upon the distributor before the second weight starts pulling the points cam further advanced. As above on Bosch distributors used by VW the weights are different sizes and weights so they are affected by sentrifigal force at different rates/points in the curve. If your graph was done in 500 rpm increments the stair step would not be as obvious or might even disappear. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Last edited by tasb on Tue May 18, 2021 4:04 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76938 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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Frederik wrote: |
From "Volkswagen handbook -by the editors of Hot rod magazine" 1963
but if you look close it's not a BR25 distributor in the picture.. |
It's a VJ4BR8, it has the eccentric points adjusting screw and the condenser is horizontal. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6616 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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tasb wrote: |
I've contemplated removing the BR 25 badges and installing brand new 010 badges as one supplier appears to be doing, but ethically I can't bring myself to do it. If a core comes to me minus a badge and it's an earlier BR 25 I don't have a problem putting an 010 badge on it as I have done on a couple of occasions, since a reproduction BR 25 Badge does not exist, to my knowledge. I don't have an issue painting an 019 as a Screamer blue since even Bosch simply took a regular black painted 019 and painted blue over it. in all other ways a Screamer is simply an "019". |
If anyone buys a 010 and needs it inspected for fraud send it to me. I will document the disassembly and we can get the situation corrected. If you bought it for market prices I will have the seller pay for my services and not you.
There's no reason anyone here should fear purchasing something like this.
I recently saw someone who admonishes aftermarket parts put an aftermarket BR18 badge on their work. I could spot the fake badge just in the picture. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76938 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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There's a difference in replacing a damaged badge with a like reproduction because the customer wants it and putting a different badge on such as a 010 on a BR25 and selling it as a 010.
If you're referring to my post on the 912 forum where I posted a picture of a restored VJ4BR18 with a reproduction Bosch badge, I clearly stated "The Bosch name plate is a reproduction since the original was missing." And the buyer knew that.
In fact I had a friend give me a 010 to rebuild. Only problem was the body was broken in 2 under the o-ring. I offered to give him a 019 body I had and put the 010 internals in it. I also removed the 010 badge and put it on the replacement body.
As long as you don't misrepresent the product there is no fraud.
As far as rebuilding an already rebuilt distributor, how will you get the seller to pay you? I've done a few at the cost of just parts and wouldn't mind getting the original seller to pay my labor. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Same as 010 and 019 Distributors |
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The most recent contribution to the I want an "original 010" club
No worries thank you. I wanted one of the originals in the original paint etc. that type of thing. If you have any 010’s I’ll take one of those if you have one. But I would rather wait for a legit 019. Thank you
After explaining that the VJ 4 BR 25 is exactly the same as an "010" and that the pandemic has severely limited my ability to acquire cores and the price for even junk 010's is absurdly through the roof I still get this:
I understand that. But the numbers aren’t the same on the tag even though it’s technically the same distributor. I restore Vws. I’m just looking for an original or a legit 019 that I can restore myself or just stick directly into my GTV. Let me know thank you
According to Webster:
Original: existing first or at the beginning, not a copy.
legit(imate): not like others, new, never seen before.
The 010 and 019 are neither original nor legitimate by dictionary definition.
What he can't bring himself to say is that his buddies will think less of him or his ride because he doesn't have an "010" on his ride like the ones in the magazine.
To the original customer just in case he finds this please understand that I get this line of inquiry almost weekly certainly monthly. I find it annoying when confronted with the facts that they still insist on a reproduction, copy instead of the legitimate original because the copies are in short supply. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Last edited by tasb on Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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