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Drew N Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: 14226
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 12:09 pm Post subject: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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My original 1986 springs have seen better days. I need to get some new tires, so I decided to go ahead and put in new springs to help with handling and tire wear. After some back and forth, I decided to go with the schwenk springs.
My ride height was pretty pitiful and was anywhere from 16.5" to 16.0" on the driver rear. This weekend I began with the fronts, hoping to get the more difficult part done first. I got both fronts in, but of course had some struggles, which I fully expected. I couldn't get the one passenger upper ball joint bolt out. All the rest finally cracked free, but that one pesky bolt just wouldn't budge and of course stripped. In an effort to not give up, I pulled the upper control arm and swung it out of the way. Naturally the eccentric washers both fell out as soon as I pulled the control arm off (despite trying not to have that happen). So everything is back together now.. I'm pretty sure I got the eccentric washers both pointed up (in the same direction) and seated, but I'm questioning it now as the toe-in seems to have changed quite a bit. Granted, the new springs have created a full inch of additional height, but I wouldn't expect the toe-in to change quite that much. ...I have 205/75r15 tires.. the distance from the front of the tires to the backs of the tires is different by 1 3/16"... that's a lot of toe-in! I plan to get new tires and will have it aligned of course, but I guess I question myself if things are seated properly on the upper control arm. Obviously I knew before I took the control arm out that doing so would completely mess up my alignment... but just more so on the camber, not really the toe.
I have a feeling I will just need to pull the control arm out again and double check it's all installed correctly. I sure hope I didn't accidentally put a washer in wrong...
Last edited by Drew N on Mon May 10, 2021 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dabaron Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018 Posts: 2558 Location: Philly, mang
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper |
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UCA adjusts camber, not toe-in, which is set via steering linkage. did you mess with the radius rod or steering linkage? _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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Drew N Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: 14226
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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Nope.. I didn't disconnect or adjust either of those. Now I'm wondering if it's been that bad the whole time?!! I took ownership of this van at the end of January and have been working on it. I have gone around town and not really put too many miles on it.
....some recent backstory may shed some light on things:
I realized the tires were dry rotted or on their way out before purchasing it. The previous owners also mentioned the need and gave full disclosure before I bought it. Then as I have been riding around in it casually, I noticed the fronts were wearing on the outer edges bad. I figured the old tires, coupled with the saggy suspension (lots of side roll) was a possible culprit, but knew that I was getting new tires soon anyways and would get an alignment at that time. Last weekend I rotated the fronts to the back as I was driving it 3.5 hours away and figured it would suffice until my new springs arrived (which I wanted new springs anyways). By the time I got back from my camping trip the fresh outer edges on the fronts were worn right down! Also all 4 tires were turning to dust while i was getting pushed all over the highway in a windstorm the entire trip.
I didn't think anything of the toe-in as I hadn't really stepped back and looked at it that hard until now (let alone take a driveway measurement). I didn't think that 1" of lift would effect the steering linkage all that much.. which is why I'm now questioning it... to make sure I'm not totally missing something obvious (as I'm new to Vanagons).
I will say that the previous owner had the steering all redone, but I think that was a few years ago.. although I don't know how much the van was actually driven since then. |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16801 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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the washers have to be installed a certain way...it's in the book. i forget which way. i think it's big end down, but double check
seeing caster and camber are the first things to set doing a FEA if you fooled with the camber this will have an effect on toe _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17007 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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Camber changes change toe. That’s why you set caster and camber first, then toe. Yes, there is a correct way to install the camber washers. I double check the green bible every time. _________________ ☮️ |
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Yellow Rabbit Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2005 Posts: 1145
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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What’s the final ride height? I’ve been thinking of these but cannot raise my van at all and fit in the garage. My 85 is taller than yours started. |
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Drew N Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: 14226
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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Thanks for the responses everyone! Yeah, the one washer was fat side down still (I think) and I set them both up to be fat side down when I re-installed everything.
...you’re all going to laugh and ridicule me, but I have not gotten a manual yet. At the moment, I’m just relying on my experience and aside from looking at a wiring diagram for fuse numbers, I’m just having at it. So far, been fun just “exploring”. Most things are available online in photo/forum/video form. I need to get one, but haven’t been looking hard enough to find one in stock yet. If someone has a minute to look up the washer orientation in their manual, I would be very grateful! |
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Drew N Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: 14226
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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Ride height is 17.5” in front so far (it could change a bit once the rears are in, but it might be splitting hairs). So basically the springs net 1” of lift for me. And the ride is substantially better.. although I have only driven around the block. But it doesn’t lean on the turns as much and starting and stopping doesn’t create so much rise and dive like it did before. I hope the beefy tires I will be installing will help stabilize it even more! |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7401 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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I really liked the ride of Schwenk 2WD springs. My favorite of several iterations. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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VicVan Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2015 Posts: 1826 Location: Vancouver Island, BC
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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Drew,
Do you have an "after" picture (assuming the first pic is a "before" one)? _________________ '90 Little Blue Truck, 2WD auto, FAS GenV 2.0 NA (AVH) |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17007 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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Page 40.5 specifies the larger side of eccentric washer faces down. I'm wondering how you are wrenching on your van without knowing the torque values for assembling parts. _________________ ☮️ |
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Drew N Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: 14226
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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VicVan wrote: |
Drew,
Do you have an "after" picture (assuming the first pic is a "before" one)? |
I don't have the rears in yet (raining today and I have another vehicle I'm working on in the garage at the moment) so no after picture... But once I get those on I will of course do that and post it up! |
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Drew N Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: 14226
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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MarkWard wrote: |
Page 40.5 specifies the larger side of eccentric washer faces down. I'm wondering how you are wrenching on your van without knowing the torque values for assembling parts. |
Thanks for verifying the orientation! Okay, cool so I suppose they're in correctly.
I understand your concern on the torque values. The upper control arm bolt and nut will need to be loosened on both sides anyways when I take it in for alignment. I suppose I could torque the ball joint bolts... the lug nuts I've gotten away from torqueing over the years with all my vehicles. The sway bar nuts, I'm not sure there's any huge crucial torque that are on those.. Thinking of what else there is that I've disturbed... Hmm..
Obviously when I had the engine out last month and the head gaskets were done (EJ25) all that was done to spec... I wouldn't ever mess with any of that "by feel". |
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VicVan Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2015 Posts: 1826 Location: Vancouver Island, BC
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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I found the Haynes manual to be plenty detailed. It has all the torque values, and is much cheaper too! _________________ '90 Little Blue Truck, 2WD auto, FAS GenV 2.0 NA (AVH) |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17007 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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The last Haynes manual I used was very confusing. Bonnet, boot, propeller shaft, spaner. I prefer the translated German. _________________ ☮️ |
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dabaron Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018 Posts: 2558 Location: Philly, mang
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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MarkWard wrote: |
The last Haynes manual I used was very confusing. Bonnet, boot, propeller shaft, spaner. I prefer the translated German. |
being a fan of the band The Smiths, i now understand English and have little trouble with the Haynes.
you should hear me play piano! _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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Drew N Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: 14226
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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Another thing I wanted to mention, was in regards to spring compressors.
Couldn't find the other type of spring compressors with the big flat jaws that were largely recommended on this site, so I had to use the style in the pictures above. You can see where I placed them and the amount of compression needed to get the springs out and back in again (that's why the tape measure is there). It's a tight fit, no doubt. The adjustment nut on the compressors are right up nearly touching the edges of the shock tower on both sides. Using a floor jack to do the compression a bit at a time and keeping up with tightening the nuts on the compressors as you go helps make the job happen.. but you do need to be careful. I didn't have any issues with the jaws slipping on the springs at all. When the springs were out I put them in my large bench vise vertically (have a woodworking bench vise that has wood lined jaws about 8" tall and 12" wide, worked really well) and just slowly uncranked the compressors a few turns per side at a time.. making sure they were releasing evenly. Same process in reverse with the new springs.
*I'm not telling anyone how to do this, just telling you how I did it. I saw a bunch of threads on this subject and so I figured I would share my experience for any interested readers. |
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Drew N Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: 14226
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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Okay, so as promised I'm posting up some more photos. The rear installs were ridiculously easy! Honestly the fronts were just a process, but not difficult... just takes time.
The rear spring pads were toast, so I got new ones. I also got a 1/2" spacer for the driver rear to combat "the westy lean".
The van is at the tire shop right now getting an alignment. My suspicions of issues with the UCA turned out to not be an issue.. I checked it a second time and it's all done correctly (I always doubt myself and end up going over my work twice.. I never find anything wrong, but I always feel better knowing I double checked).
So the measurements are still settling in on the height. The fronts gave me 1" and the rears were at an 1 1/2" yesterday, but after the springs popped around and seated, it looks like 1" on passenger rear and 1 1/4" on driver rear. So basically I'm level at 17.5". If I need to pop a few spacers in the rear later to keep it level or more in the rear, I'm sure I can do like 1/4" or something. We'll see how it settles over a few weeks.
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syncro surf Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2017 Posts: 189 Location: Maine
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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dabaron wrote: |
being a fan of the band The Smiths, i now understand English and have little trouble with the Haynes.
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I'm never without my rusty spanner. |
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Drew N Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2020 Posts: 28 Location: 14226
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Schwenk Springs in an 86 Full Camper? |
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So I just picked the van up from alignment. They didn't adjust the camber. I'm not sure I believe this is possible. The mechanic I know there wasn't able to do it, so he asked "the other guy" if he adjusted the camber and he said no.
I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be some adjustment after I installed the new springs and had totally removed the UCA.
Am I being a PITA customer? |
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